Star Trek XI

[Vex Xiang 0]

Although, I think you're wrong in returning to the Romulans and the Klingons (at least the Klingons)...they'll mess up so much canon if they do so

 

You might be right about the Klingons (unless you're just talking about the bumpy head thing). But that's because we know so much about them and their history. And Klingons were used so much in TOS, the Movies, and TNG and DS9.

 

The Romulans...we really don't have that much canon information on them. A host or crewmember from the Talon might want to chime in here, but as I understand it most information on Romulans that are used in sims come from a book called "The Romulan Way" and other such books and reference materials, not from the actual show. Most would agree that books and games are not canon (at least that was the old SFOL idea). So ENT really has a lot to develop in terms of canon Romulan history, especially in regards to the Earth/Romulan War, which we know next to nothing about.

[NDak 0]

 

 

The Romulans...we really don't have that much canon information on them. A host or crewmember from the Talon might want to chime in here, but as I understand it most information on Romulans that are used in sims come from a book called "The Romulan Way" and other such books and reference materials, not from the actual show. Most would agree that books and games are not canon (at least that was the old SFOL idea). So ENT really has a lot to develop in terms of canon Romulan history, especially in regards to the Earth/Romulan War, which we know next to nothing about.

We use "The Romulan Way" as well as a few other books and the White Unicorn Games (see Talon Sim Rules, Etc.)

 

Which is exactly why don't use the Nemesis storyline. (It is rumored that t'Rex uses it for a drink coaster once and a while) Basicaly what those nimrods at Berman and Braga, Inc. did was change the entire history of the Romulan Empire (The Sundering and what not) in a breif 90 mins.

 

SOOO, depending on how they handle the Rihan Wars...I would Imagine would decide wiether or not it would be 'cannon' for the Talon or not....

 

 

::waits for t'Rexan to chime in::

Edited April 28, 2004 by Ern_Ndak

[Vex Xiang 0]

Which is exactly why don't use the Nemesis storyline. (It is rumored that t'Rex uses it for a drink coaster once and a while) Basicaly what those nimrods at Berman and Braga, Inc. did was change the entire history of the Romulan Empire (The Sundering and what not) in a breif 90 mins.

 

Well here is where I disagree. Nemesis "defined" parts of the Romulan Empire, not redefined it...because aside from non-canon books, that information didn't exist.

 

I'm the last person to talk about sticking to canon in sims, heh, but in regards to canon Romulan material, there is none. It would be more accurate to say that because of Nemesis, anything contradictory in those books is not a reflection of canon Trek.

[Dumbass 0]

You might be right about the Klingons (unless you're just talking about the bumpy head thing). But that's because we know so much about them and their history. And Klingons were used so much in TOS, the Movies, and TNG and DS9.

You might remember the actress who played the mother on the old "Lost in Space" TV series (I forget her name) was also the actress who played the mother on the old "Lassie" series. One line she always had on Lassie was "You go ahead, I'll stay here with Lassie." Anyway, either out of force of habbit or just a gag, she used that line in the first Lost in Space episode - and the producers kept it in! ^_^

 

Anyway, it would have been great if in "Trials and Tribbleations" Worf had just simply said "It was cheaper for the studio" and the others at the table simply nodded and went about their business. That would have been hillarious! ;)

[NDak 0]

Well I agree with Vex . I mean it was thier canon to change--but as the Lobed one pointed out, for our purposes it is easier not to include Nemesis in our "Canon." ^_^

[Dumbass 0]

for our purposes it is easier not to include Nemesis in our "Canon." ^_^

Yeah, I can understand that. Strange little monkey and his replicated peanuts.

[Ki'rok 0]

::Aiming a cannon at all the Nay-sayers:: ;)

 

As I have said before...ENT needed time to find itself. Was the show AWESOME to begin with...no. I missed some of season two, all together. But it is improving. Much like other trek shoes..namely the best trek show, TNG.

 

At its start, TNG was....well...kinda crappy. The plot lines were eh..the characters were developing...troi wouldnt wear a uniform. The point is (quoting Monty Python ) "it got better."

 

You can bad mouth ENT all you want. The fact is...if the upward trend in writing continues..this series has the greatest potential since TOS. It can make up rules as it goes. It can fill in the tremendous gaps in storylines and development.

IF..the trend continues. I plan on giving it the chance.

 

Look, like it or dont like it. Watch it or dont watch it. But dont complain about how bad it is and KEEP watching...thats just ^_^ I didnt like DS9...(sorry FRED) so I quit watching. During the recent marathon, I tried again. There were some parts that were good. But it just got all "The prophets" this and "the prophets" that and I couldnt take it. So I watched something else! I dont keep hammering FRED over the head with its inadequecies (in my opinion :D )

 

As a trek fan, I get enough criticism from the outside world ;) We may be spoiled. We may need a break. Or, we may just need a new perspective. ;)

 

Gene's vision was seeking out new life...ENT has a place in that realm :P

[Tovan 0]

sigh...no matter what they do, where they go, it'll still be star trek. we may watch it but we don't have to like it...

[FredM 0]

Hey there,

 

I'm sorry...I don't see how someone can judge Star Trek: Enterprise and it's effect on cannon when the show isn't over. It would be like judging, let's say, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace and saying "It's going against cannon! Vader isn't even there!!!" not putting into account there were still two more episodes to follow.

 

The same holds true for Archer and company. For this time period, with very...very...very few exceptions there was nothing set within Trek lore. The only solid information was the founding date of the UFP and the fact that followed a war between Earth (and it's allies) and the Romulans.

 

Was first contact with the Klingons a disaster? Eh, a farmer shot him and he was kidnapped when trying to be returned home. Yeah, don't think that was all too great. Also, let's keep in mind that opinons of the past change. Example: At the time this Klingon was brought back, Qo'nos didn't think much of it. However, given things that have happened since, they now hold humans in a negative light and see that first incident as the cornerstone that started to destroy relations.

 

Again, we don't know what future encounters we'll have with Klingons. We simply don't know. I'll wait until the show is off the air and it's locked in what we actually know before I make a final judgement call. Cause ya know what? Just as I was very concerned regarding T'Pol's behavior...wouldn't you know ten episodes later it now makes sense. I have a feeling, in the end, 95% of what we've seen on this show will.

[Marris Krax 0]

Look, like it or dont like it. Watch it or dont watch it. But dont complain about how bad it is and KEEP watching...thats just ^_^

I agree. This is why I stopped watching after the Ferengi episode ;) I'd much rather drool over the next season of Star Gate, personally.

 

::drool::

 

And yeah, I'm willing to admit it might get better, but until someone can point out an ENT episode to me and say, "That's as good an episode as Measure of a Man" which I believe was the turning point in TNG, I won't watch it again.

 

As for Fred's comments, now is not the best time for me to be commenting on such things, considering I nearly bit someone's head off at the paper today over the use of my phone tap, so I'm going to go calm down before I make an ass of myself.

[Dumbass 0]

ass

^_^

[Dumbass 0]

And yeah, I'm willing to admit it might get better, but until someone can point out an ENT episode to me and say, "That's as good an episode as Measure of a Man" which I believe was the turning point in TNG, I won't watch it again.

OK, I have to disagree. While that was a very good episode (one my old philosophy instructor made us watch one class period with comments and debate the next period) I think the turning point for the series, indeed the entire franchise, was the Best of Both Worlds 2-parter.

 

Think about the time period. Gene Rodenbury had just died. The actors were still in contract negotiations. There were rumors that TNG was going to be pulled from the air. If it was allowed to stay on at all it would be without Picard. So when the season ended with Locutus on the viewscreen and Riker, now Captain, giving the order to fire, the audience had been preconditioned by the rumors and real-life events to expect anything. The season ended with the words "To be continued...", the first time in Trek history a story wasn't wraped up by the end of the season. (The only thing I didn't like was we were never given an explanation as to why Riker was demoted from Captain to Commander after saving the Federation.)

 

TNG was in very real danger of dying a premature death. Best of Both Worlds saved it, and without BOBW there could be no 7 of 9, and no First Contact, and no Enterprise.

[Vex Xiang 0]

(The only thing I didn't like was we were never given an explanation as to why Riker was demoted from Captain to Commander after saving the Federation.)

 

I think it was a voluntary demotion so he could remain XO of the Enterprise.

 

without BOBW there could be no 7 of 9

 

Millions of teenage boys would have been very disappointed I'm sure ^_^

[Tovan 0]

Millions of teenage boys would have been very disappointed I'm sure ^_^

;)

[Dumbass 0]

Millions of teenage boys would have been very disappointed I'm sure ^_^

And a couple hundred thousand adult boys as well.

[Marris Krax 0]

^_^

Oh, like you should be so shocked, Mr. Dumbass ;)

 

Perhaps turning point was a bad assessment, but it was certainly the first really good episode of TNG, so if ENT was showing that kind of promise of a really good episode, then I'd give it a shot again.

 

::crawls back into bed so the-day-that-just-gets-worse will go away::

[Feanor 0]

1) Everyone seems to say DS9 was the last best Trek. Well I disagree. DS9 was great until they turned it into one long soap opera. Then they carried the soap-opera mentality over to ENT. In short, I stopped watching DS9 at the end because it was lousy Trek.

 

2) Marris has gotten her hand stuck in the cookie jar way too many times.

 

3) ENT is failing because it has to climb mount everest to get the attention of hard-core Trek fans. We've had so much great material that its just very hard to top that. I personally don't watch ENT often because it doesn't involve things that are familiar to me in Trek. We've gone away from Klingons and Romulans. When we get back to there, I'll watch again...because it's just good entertainment.

 

4) ENT is canon, whether we like it or not. Just like TAS. It will be interesting to see if sims start to exclude ENT material as canon just because they don't like the show. Sure, it has contradictions...but so does Bush. That's life. ENT is here, enjoy it or not, but its part of the Trek universe now.

I rather liked the last seasons of DS9 for the exact reason you're stating. They had a consistent story line. As opposed to the TOS and TNG style which put the crew in a new situation each week and we didn't get to see the relationships between the crew evolve much. DS9 was a much more character and story driven Trek.

 

I agree..marris does like her cookies.

 

 

But enterprise does involve klingons and romulans, and thats one of the things I hate about it. It also involves ferengi and borg, yay! ^.^ Next season we get to meet the Bajorans and cardassians I'll bet.

 

I'll probably get slaughtered for even suggesting that there is simming outside of STSF, but my own sim does ignore enterprise, it also ignores great sweeping parts of Voyager and on my plane of existance, there is no such thing as Nemesis.

 

Just because its here dosen't mean I have to acknowledge it as part of the trek universe.

 

Yes, bush has contradictions, I don't belive in him either.

[Feanor 0]

Well here is where I disagree. Nemesis "defined" parts of the Romulan Empire, not redefined it...because aside from non-canon books, that information didn't exist.

 

I'm the last person to talk about sticking to canon in sims, heh, but in regards to canon Romulan material, there is none. It would be more accurate to say that because of Nemesis, anything contradictory in those books is not a reflection of canon Trek.

actually to some degree it did exist, it was established in Unification that the Remans were not a seperate race from the Romulans, and that Romulus and Remus are the TWIN homeworlds of the Romulan empire, as illustrated by the bird of prey clutching a green and blue globe in each talon.

[Feanor 0]

Well I agree with Vex . I mean it was thier canon to change--but as the Lobed one pointed out, for our purposes it is easier not to include Nemesis in our "Canon." ^_^

Trek does not belong to Berman or Braga and it is NOT theirs to change on a whim.

[Saek tr'Vosh 0]

I think the turning point for the series, indeed the entire franchise, was the Best of Both Worlds 2-parter.

 

Think about the time period. Gene Rodenbury had just died. The actors were still in contract negotiations. There were rumors that TNG was going to be pulled from the air. If it was allowed to stay on at all it would be without Picard. So when the season ended with Locutus on the viewscreen and Riker, now Captain, giving the order to fire, the audience had been preconditioned by the rumors and real-life events to expect anything. The season ended with the words "To be continued...", the first time in Trek history a story wasn't wraped up by the end of the season. (The only thing I didn't like was we were never given an explanation as to why Riker was demoted from Captain to Commander after saving the Federation.)

 

TNG was in very real danger of dying a premature death. Best of Both Worlds saved it, and without BOBW there could be no 7 of 9, and no First Contact, and no Enterprise.

Apparently, Van Roy and I agree on alot more than I knew. This was the catalyst for the new TNG. The show had to evolve or perish and it evolved. ::shivers:: Staring at Locutus...with that little red light zooming around...timeless.

[Nemesis 0]

Well I watched Enterprise just awhile ago and it kicks the tushie out of Measure of Men so... there you should start watching Marris.

[Feanor 0]

I'm sorry...I don't see how someone can judge Star Trek: Enterprise and it's effect on cannon when the show isn't over. It would be like judging, let's say, Star Wars: The Phantom Menace and saying "It's going against cannon! Vader isn't even there!!!" not putting into account there were still two more episodes to follow.

 

Well beside the fact that you're comparing what are commonly refered to as "apples" and "oranges" One being a movie series written and produced ENTIRELY by one man, the other being a series of television series created by one man, written by hired writers and contributed to and continued by other men and women.

 

When a building is demolished, a really big one, they implode it. The implosion dosen't occur all at once, its done in sections, but you can tell from the first explosion what the effect on the building is going to be.

[Marris Krax 0]

Well I watched Enterprise just awhile ago and it kicks the tushie out of Measure of Men so... there you should start watching Marris.

What was the episode, what was it about, what happened, and why do you think it's just as good or better than a deep philosophical discussion about the nature of intelligent beings? ^.^

[Captain Huff 0]

I didnt like DS9...(sorry FRED) so I quit watching. During the recent marathon, I tried again. There were some parts that were good. But it just got all "The prophets" this and "the prophets" that and I couldnt take it. So I watched something else!

Wow, *exactly* the same way I felt. Cool.

 

You know what would be cool? An entire movie (or series for that matter) based on the enemy. Their ship, their captain, their viewpoint... And the Federation ships and characters would be secondary, like the enemies are in the current movies/series. Ooo...

 

But they never call me up and ask. :D

[Dumbass 0]

You know what would be cool? An entire movie (or series for that matter) based on the enemy. Their ship, their captain, their viewpoint... And the Federation ships and characters would be secondary, like the enemies are in the current movies/series. Ooo...

Ooh, I have just the idea for this!

 

Star Trek: Pakleds

 

"They are strong. They make it go."