Empires

[FredM 0]

Hey there,

 

The most important...saying...I think anyone can take is "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

 

Everything else, is trivial in comparison B)

[Nemesis 0]

Hey there,

 

Completely correct. But then again, we did save that same country from being controlled by Germany...twice was it? We were the lead deterant against an attack by the USSR? Yes, be very lucky most folks within the United States don't hold a grudge...for too long. B)

I believe the reason for America for joining the wars had to do with their own national security and not Canada's which was actually defending Britin and not truly itself thank you very much.

 

I will also point out that America did not save any country anymore then any other country fighting against. Just wanted to have that known thank you.

[NDak 0]

I believe the reason for America for joining the wars had to do with their own national security and not Canada's which was actually defending Britin and not truly itself thank you very much.

 

I will also point out that America did not save any country anymore then any other country fighting against. Just wanted to have that known thank you.

Well for my overly proud Patriotic Moment of the Year:

 

IF it wasn't for us 'stupid overbearing Americans' Europe would have been overtaken By the Germans TWICE. We entered WW I not for any real reason (yes yes I know about the Lusitania but meh it did have contraband on it) other than to save Everyone elses rears.

 

And once Again in WW II its was the Americans who changed the Balance of Power.

 

For the record I believe America in deed does classify as one of the three or four GREAT empires in History. I am just not sure where we fall in the upper echelon of greatness. Certainly Millitarly we (comparatively) rival Rome for might, however we are going to have to last the 1000 years or so that 'The Eternal City' did before we can call ourselves the Greatest Empire of All Time.

Edited February 10, 2004 by Ern_Ndak

[Grom 0]

Gah! Noooooo! Don't listen to him! Cicero is a long-winded @#$@!!! I should know. I just translated about 30 lines of De Officiis, and I've been unfortunate enough to translate all of the Orations Against Verres (abridged), a couple letters, parts of De Amicitia...

 

Then again, most of y'all won't be reading it in Latin, so...

Cicero is not as bad to translate as Vergil (Aeneid, Ecologues) or Lucretius (De Rerum Natura) for instance. Then again, I always find prose easier than poetry. De Officiis is a great piece of work, however and his works in general have been revered throughout history.

[Grom 0]

I will also point out that America did not save any country anymore then any other country fighting against. Just wanted to have that known thank you.

Personal opinions do not determine the truth. The world would look very different today had not America stepped in and looked out for more than her own tail. Just once I'd like to see us not protect a country like Canada just to listen to all the whines and complaints of how America should protect them like they've done before. B)

[Nemesis 0]

Personal opinions do not determine the truth. The world would look very different today had not America stepped in and looked out for more than her own tail. Just once I'd like to see us not protect a country like Canada just to listen to all the whines and complaints of how America should protect them like they've done before. B)

Its not a personal opinion it is fact thank you very much what Fred said was a personal opinion.

[NDak 0]

Good grief I am agreeing with fred and Grom...::takes temperature::

 

I think it is pretty well accepted that America, more or less single handedly, was responsible for ending both world wars and we did defeat communism all on our own.

[Grom 0]

Its not a personal opinion it is fact thank you very much what Fred said was a personal opinion.

How do you figure Nem? When the Americans entered World War II France and England were on the brink of falling and the next step would've been North America. Ameica entered the war and finished it. Sure it took awhile and sure it was a group effort. But the American emergence in Africa and then on Normandy helped ensure that the war would be fought and won in Europe.

 

It's fine if you don't like America and no one is asking you to like her, but that doesn't change history, what my grandparents did for the sake of the freedom of the world. ::shakes head:: Public education isn't what it used to be. B)

[Nemesis 0]

Good grief I am agreeing with fred and Grom...::takes temperature::

 

I think it is pretty well accepted that America, more or less single handedly, was responsible for ending both world wars and we did defeat communism all on our own.

I'll have you know Canada was a member of the cold war aswell and a lot of America's developments in military technologies can be attributed to Canada, so don't give me that stuff.

[Nemesis 0]

How do you figure Nem? When the Americans entered World War II France and England were on the brink of falling and the next step would've been North America. Ameica entered the war and finished it. Sure it took awhile and sure it was a group effort. But the American emergence in Africa and then on Normandy helped ensure that the war would be fought and won in Europe.

 

It's fine if you don't like America and no one is asking you to like her, but that doesn't change history, what my grandparents did for the sake of the freedom of the world. ::shakes head:: Public education isn't what it used to be. B)

I have no problem with America, only people saying that America is this supreme super power who wins all the wars and blah blah blah. If America was so great where were they during the first invasions of Germany in WW I and II?

[NDak 0]

::takes temperature again as he finds himself continuing to agree with Grom::

 

 

WE ARE THE WORLD SUPERPOWER! oy vey There is no country who can go toe to toe with America and win...face it. Notonly are we the military power of the world, the world economy rises and falls with the US Economy. There is no country in the world that can match us in either field; which classifies you as the SOLE Super Power.

 

::senses flaring tempers which was not his idea when starting topic::

Edited February 10, 2004 by Ern_Ndak

[Nemesis 0]

::takes temperature again as he finds himself continuing to agree with Grom::

 

WE ARE THE WORLD SUPERPOWER! oy vey B) There is no country who can go toe to toe with America and win...face it.

You are not the World Super Power. China could kick your butts, How many wars have you won without outside help?

 

War of 1812? nope

 

Vietnam? ummmm nope

 

and thats all the wars you've fought on your own.

[NDak 0]

okay I think I am going to have delete this topic...

[Nemesis 0]

All I am trying to say is that you needed us in WWII and WWI just as much as we needed you.

[Seiben 0]

Whoa nelly.. this thread sure went off-topic in a hurry didn't it? Granted, the Americans are a formidable nation, with a strong army, but 9/11 proved that they are just as vunerable as any other nation. The United States is already the most hated country in the world, and I think it'll ony be a matter of time (most likely not in our life time), before the United States' moment in the sun as a superpower fades away. Look at the Roman Empire for example... it lasted 600 years before falling to the Barbarians. (China already has quite a powerful military)

[Nemesis 0]

(China already has quite a powerful military)

Not to mention an outnumbering amount of able bodied boys and a larger population.

[Ultima 0]

I think it is pretty well accepted that America, more or less single handedly, was responsible for ending both world wars and we did defeat communism all on our own.

Two quick opinionated comments about that communism statement:

 

1) I'll assume you meant Russian communism, as Cuba, the DPRK, and the PRC all still (claim to) exercise communism in one form or another.

 

2) Even with regards to communism in Russia, I believe it's more accurate to say that the Soviet Union was not defeated by the US but by itself. The collapse of the Soviet Union was directly caused by the way Stalin and the general secerataries that followed him applied their versions of communism to the country's political, economic, and social structures. While US efforts in the international arena certainly limited Soviet foreign endeavours, it is difficult given the data we have today to argue that the US directly - not to mention singlehandedly - defeated communism in the Soviet Union.

 

Actually, a common misconception in the Western world, primarily caused by McCarthyist propaganda, is that the communist powers were all buddy-buddy and represented a united front. In East Asia at least, the opposite was true. I just finished a 50 page thesis on relations between the USSR and PRC before the Korean War, and I was often surprised at the distrust and dislike evident in documents from the time. Stalin number one concern was Soviet national security, not communist brotherhood. China was basically duped into fighting in Korea by Stalin, for example, and they never forgave the USSR for it. And Kim Il-sung didn't even want China's help in the first place.

 

Sorry for the tangent, but I think it's really interesting stuff that goes against common Western perceptions of communism. Consider this: within 3 years of defeating the US in Vietnam (and yes, the US *was* defeated), communist Vietnam was again at war - with communist China. Food for thought.

[Ultima 0]

I voted for China. I love Roman history, it is my personal favorite. But the Chinese lasted far longer. Also, unlike the Romans, the Chinese were never successfully invaded *and* their empire dismantled. That qualification is important because China was invaded many times, but the invaders were always assimilated into Chinese culture. When the foreign Mongols invaded, for example, the structure of the empire remained intact. It was simply another dynasty in a long line of dynasties. The same was true for the Manchus from Korea.

 

If China does not have the same military record as the Romans, I believe it was because they didn't need it. China claimed to be the center of the world, even into modern times. China knew, Japan knew, East Asia knew it. Challenging Chinese supremacy in Asia in ancient times would be like punching the Pope in the face today. It just didn't happen. Anyone who has played a game of Sid Meier's Civilization 3 knows that cultural assimilation is a much easier route to domination than military conquest (not that I base my ideas off of games).

 

China's changed, but they remain strong. I believe that if the last century was the United States', this century will be China's. The potential for economic growth is mindboggling. Still, lots of different things can go wrong, so it will be interesting to live through.

[Seiben 0]

China's changed, but they remain strong. I believe that if the last century was the United States', this century will be China's. The potential for economic growth is mindboggling. Still, lots of different things can go wrong, so it will be interesting to live through.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly, Ultima.

[John_Anderson 0]

::Looks at how amazingly the post went off topic.:: Wow....Why's it's always the Canadians that do it?? Hmmmm....

 

BUT! To remain on topic. I completly see where your going Ultima. China and India have the potential to become a major power in the world over the next centuary. China today is powerful, but the have untapped potential. People still do not like that China is still a communist country (Of course in no way as communist as the former USSR.). But once they get everything together they will be a force to be reckoned with and feared.

 

Same goes with India, they are starting to head down the road in becoming an major power in the world.

 

Both have had very fascinating civilizations and are going to continue to grow and absorb.

[Marris Krax 0]

Cicero is not as bad to translate as Vergil (Aeneid, Ecologues) or Lucretius (De Rerum Natura) for instance. Then again, I always find prose easier than poetry. De Officiis is a great piece of work, however and his works in general have been revered throughout history.

Heh...well, as much as I desipse Cicero, I also love Cicero B) He can really rip it into a person when he feels like it. So yeah, go read the English versions folks. He's an interesting, if long-winded guy.