Is Columbis a real hero?

[Nemesis 0]

::sighs::  Unfortunately in my education they had to dig their history post holes in bedrock... and couldn't get very far!  (Great post though, thanks!  But who brought the Almighty Coffee Bean?)

Huff who brought the almighty coffee bean the answer of course is myself I did you can give your praise to me :D jk I believe and do not take my world for it that the coffee bean came from a little process called evolution :D but coffee was developed most likey to the natives of South and Central America :D

[Grom 0]

Hey folks,

 

Any of you who participated in this debate, I just read part of a really intriguing book. From what Ive read thus far, it seems fiarly balanced. It's called "1492 and all that." by Robert Royal. It'll help your perspective a little. It exposes both the utopian view of Columbus as false and the recent educational adgenda of making Columbus out to be a greater evil than Hitler as false.

 

Seems like good stuff...very thought provoking.

[Nemesis 0]

I don't believe in evil for Hitler was not evil just power hungry and so was Columbus just on differant degrees :ph34r:

[Grom 0]

I don't believe in evil for Hitler was not evil just power hungry and so was Columbus just on differant degrees :ph34r:

The point was to show the contrast between extreme opposing views. Mr. Royal does a great job in bashing both of those views. In fact, there are a number of myths that surround Columbus. Some of the things Columbus is credited for are certainly not true and contrastly, some of the things he is demonized for are just as false. The answer on this man seems to fall somewhere in the middle...because, as this book points out, Columbus has been used both for conservative and liberal agendas alike. The truth about him has often been distored for these purposes.

[Nemesis 0]

Well thats true for all cases in History the go to either of the 2 extremes and not the exactly middle ground most things reside at :ph34r:

[ens_tino 0]

I should read it then. Maybe he wasnt what I said but there is little proof on each side of the spectrum.

[Grom 0]

I should read it then. Maybe he wasnt what I said but there is little proof on each side of the spectrum.

That's also something else to take into consideration. I'm sure the sources on Columbus are not exhaustive, meaning that, for certain, much speculation is bound to encompass him. We can only decipher from what we have, and from what we have is often not reliable. The farther away from the event, the easier it becomes to distort it. Why do you think there are so many varying views about the first man? Why do you think some historians think the Earth is millions of years old, while some believe it to be around 10,000? What we learn from studying Columbus is how we should critically evaluate history. We should not just blantatnly accept what is being taught in school. Most of today's history text books aren't interested in finding the facts, but are more interested in being politically correct and culturally sensitive. While being inclusive is sometimes good, it often clouds histoy.

 

We all need to dig...and unearth for ourselves what happened in history.... :)

[ens_tino 0]

Thats true too. We sometimes have to forget the past and move on. Especially when it happened 500 years ago.

[Nemesis 0]

Grom another thing how do you know that book expresses the truth or just false information?

[ens_tino 0]

Thats true. If the guys from Italy we're going to get that Columbus is a good guy and never harmed anyone or anything story.

[Atragon9 0]

I don't believe in evil for Hitler was not evil just power hungry and so was Columbus just on differant degrees :)

Hitler was not evil???

 

Sorry, I don't usually join in the geopolitical discussions, but I have to say two things about this.

 

I believe that Hitler *WAS* evil (sure, he was power hungry too, but really...)

 

And, uhhm, I don't want to start a discussion of Nazi Germany, etc. here since it can quickly devolve into something nasty that we'd have to shut down.

 

[ens_tino 0]

Power hungry is putting it mild. He killed over 1000 Jews and so on. I wouldnt say it was him that got us involved with WWII because the Japanise thought it would scare us and cause us not to join the war. But that was a mistake because in the end we dropped two atomic bombs on them.

[Nemesis 0]

It was over 6 million Tino they killed over 30000 in a smaller death camps. The United States was involved in WWII sinces the beginning but only gave supplies to the forces and didn't give direct combat until threats came close to home.

 

I don't think Hitler was evil because I do not believe in good and evil for we can find Hitlers anywheres in the world because if anyone has heard of Milgrims expriments they would understand because 50% of the normal americans tested were willing to give a man they did not know an electric shock that would kill them quite gleefully (not putting up a fight). I'm just trying don't judge people like that and don't blame others only look down and be honest with yourself if you are capable of such things.

 

Now the only thing preventing another occurence like the holocaust is education on such things to make people to think critically about themselves which I'm sorry to say I'm not sure if its really happening but I do hope I've taught some of the younger people here.

[ens_tino 0]

But he killed over 6 million people as you said yourself. And everything he did was under his command. How cant that make a person evil? He was power hungry but he cause a huge genocide that almost wiped out the Jewish population.

 

Though anyone is capable of the same thing. It isnt really evil though. Its just hate for different people. Us hating Hitler makes us as bad as the Natzi soilders and Hitler. I do not agree with what he did but hating somone makes us as bad as him.

Edited November 20, 2003 by ens_tino

[NDak 0]

Hey Guys,

 

A few things, Nem is more on target with the 6 million, but that total not Just jews, that number is actually smaller, the 6 million inlcuded gypsys, gays, and a host of other groups targeted.

 

Second- Stalin killed somehting like 100 million of his own people. (well actualy thats an estimate no one really knows.

 

Third- Before you go comdeming hitler, (do not take this the wrong way, its just food for thought) Consider the deaths of Native Americans during the late 1800's. Thin about what the US gov't did to them. Not obly did we kill millions of innocent people, we destroyed a culture, how does thta make us different from Hitler? ::steps back away from the topic::

[Nemesis 0]

Also there were communists, crippled people, and several more not quite perfect in Hitlers perception. Why we think of Hitler as so evil is because this was the first war that was filmed with great detail and also because it was something no one had ever seen in such a scale and in such time in modern time. There were several instances of these events in history and it isn't illogical to assume we are all related to one of this people because the world isn't black and white its a spectrum of differant shades and colours and right and wrong are merely points of view on certian matters.

[Seiben 0]

Quite profound, my simian friend. And no, I don't think he is a real hero. Columbus wasn't even the first man to discover America. It was the Vikings. Leif Erikson did, I think. So where is the "LEif Erricson Day" eh? I guess that's why us Canucks don't celebrate Columbus Day.:)

[Nemesis 0]

Actually there is new evidence to suggest it was Irish catholics who discovered North America I can't remember the story I'll have to look it up and get back to you guys on it later :)

[Nemesis 0]

I was just reminded of a thing in history in Canadian and American history during WWII. This may not be as extreme as a Nazi death camp but it is still a similar event the camps we put the Japenese citizens out of fear and some of these citizens fought in WWI but we ignored their value through fear and partial prejudice. That is something a lot of people in North America do not know about but it only goes to show that when push comes shove we are just the same just think about that one.

[Grom 0]

It was over 6 million Tino they killed over 30000 in a smaller death camps. The United States was involved in WWII sinces the beginning but only gave supplies to the forces and didn't give direct combat until threats came close to home.

 

I don't think Hitler was evil because I do not believe in good and evil for we can find Hitlers anywheres in the world because if anyone has heard of Milgrims expriments they would understand because 50% of the normal americans tested were willing to give a man they did not know an electric shock that would kill them quite gleefully (not putting up a fight). I'm just trying don't judge people like that and don't blame others only look down and be honest with yourself if you are capable of such things.

 

Now the only thing preventing another occurence like the holocaust is education on such things to make people to think critically about themselves which I'm sorry to say I'm not sure if its really happening but I do hope I've taught some of the younger people here.

Hey Nem,

 

I would have to disagree with you. Although man is capable of doing something doesn't mean we shouldn't condemn those who have chosen to do something. Hitler, Stalin, Nero, Sadam...you name em, they were evil people. Anyone who takes pleasure in killing people, in my book, is evil. The question is, where do you draw the line? I think you'd probably think differently if a man came to your house and killed your entire family. Would you still be hesitant to call him evil, or would you say, "Well, every one of us is capable of such an act so...would you like to stay for dinner?"

 

I think it is absurd at how we've reached this line of thinking. Nothing personal, but just a rant of mine. For the record, education has not prevented holocosts. There's a major holocost that has been going on for longer than World War II in my country. It's all up to the hearts of the people. If the people won't stand for it, then it won't happen. But, as we saw in Germany, the people supported Hitler, and because of that support, he was successful. You don't change minds...you change hearts.

[Nemesis 0]

You do not understand Grom, you need to think what made the people of Germany support Hitler, how did Hitler get control, why were the jewish people targeted, What happened in Hitler's life to give him such ideals, how people raised in differant enviroments would act under similar stituations. Once you can answer those questions you can use your answers to prevent things like those ever happening again to others.

 

I do not believe anyone is evil and it I condem these people for their actions I am no better then them but what I should do is try to discover their problems that allow them to think in a way that would take them to taking another life and attempt to heal this so that they hurt no one else and I walk away with a clear concious.

 

Thinking of people as evil is only an attempt to feel better about yourself and the things they have done that you haven't but the simple fact as calling Hitler evil only shows that you are suffering from the same thing the German people were Hate, Ignorance, and allowing your decisions to be made on incomplete information.

 

Now as you say that those people were evil what right do you have to say that you are you did not live their lives, feel their pains, Their wants, Their needs, and how it made them feel when they killed. You have no right to accuse them of being evil as they had no right to take those lives and when you do you only are releasing the so called "Evil" that is in you onto others.

[FredM 0]

Hey folks,

 

Regretfully, it seems this conversation's gone a bit too far. We've gotten away from Columbus to calling people ignorant to discussing Hitler. Just not appropriate and therefor, this topic is closed.