Is Columbis a real hero?

[ens_tino 0]

Well since Columbus Day is coming up and we have been learning more about him in school I just thought about bringing this up.

 

As we all know Columbus discovered America and is now known as a hero. But when he got here there Indians here that havent even seen another person before. As he set foot on the newly discovered land or rediscovered land he set a flag in the ground and just took over.

 

After a while he brutely murdered some of the natives just to take over.

 

So should Columbus be an actual hero or not. He mudered hundreds of Indians then we honor him for that. So what do you think.

[Nemesis 0]

Well he was sculped on his thrid visit to the Americas. Now another thing Columbus did not take over the Americas that was later in history all Columbus did was to try and find a western route to Asia and believed he did until further discovery. That is why we call native americans Indians. The Vikings discovered America before him but were kicked out by the locals and didn't known make a written record of the settlement so by Columbus doing that he is a hero. :D

[ens_tino 0]

Well thats what I heard in class. I was close though.Well he did techincally almost take over after he said You are under the rule of Spain now we will protect you.

[Dumbass 0]

Columbus discovered (or rediscovered) 2 continents.  That alone is historical and significant.  However, he died believing all he discovered was another way of getting to India.  I wouldn't consider him a hero, but I wouldn't mind getting the day off anyway.

[FredM 0]

Hey there,

 

One factor many seem to want to forget, "Native Americans" have since been found to not be native to North America. In fact, it's been discovered they crossed onto the continent while a land bridge existed between modern day Alaska and Russia.

 

Now, Columbus himself discovered numerous continents and that discovery radically changed the world. As for the "takeover," remember that's how everyone did it in that day. There were the "world's" major powers. They decided practically everything. If there wasn't a claim from another stronger force, it was theirs.

 

He didn't rediscover anything. The knowledge the land mass of "America" existed was absent from...well...everyone. The fact that this man brought 1/2 of the world into the understanding it had another 1/2 with land on it is monumental. Furthermore, like it or not, if there had been no Columbus, there would not have been British Colonies, there would not have been a revolt by British citizens and there wouldn't have been a United States of America.

[Vex Xiang 0]

[

In fact, it's been discovered they crossed onto the continent while a land bridge existed between modern day Alaska and Russia.

 

That information is a bit out of date. There are recent discoveries that indicate settlements in south america that pre-date the supposed time frame of that land bridge. Some natives moved along the bridge, its now known that many also moved north from South America.

 

Though supposedly the "origin" of the homo species was in northern Africa (I dont believe homosapien migrated from africa, I think it was an earlier species - I forget exactly). So technically the europeans are also not "native".

[Dumbass 0]

If Columbus himself had not discovered the New World odds are some other Spaniard would have in the next couple decades, and the workd would proably look very much like it does today.  We already knew the world was round, we just thought it was smaller than it was.  Columbus was an innovative thinker for thinking he could reach India by going west instead of following the African coastline.  However, he didn't set out to discover new continents, just a different route to existing ones.

 

I'm not saying Columbus isn't a figure to be celebrated, but he didn't set out to do anything heroic.  Is he really a hero?

[Garnoopy 0]

Furthermore, like it or not, if there had been no Columbus, there would not have been British Colonies, there would not have been a revolt by British citizens and there wouldn't have been a United States of America.

Admiral Fred, I believe you have just conducted a major logical fallacy. Did you not learn those in college?

 

The statement that "if there had been no Columbus, there would not have been British Colonies" is a huge logical fallacy by the title of hypothesis contrary to the fact. There is no evidence that if Columbus had not sailed that British colonies would have never existed or the United States. To put it in other words, if you marry someone and while you're married your wife introduces you to Picasso paintings. When you get divorced, your wife says, "I'm keeping our Picasso! You would have never known anything about Picasso if it weren't for me!" This is a hypothesis contrary to the fact. There is no evidence that you would have not learned about Picasso from another source if you hadn't learned it from your wife. Your statement Fred is a hypothesis contrary to the fact. It cannot be proven therefore is as Mr. Spock put it, illogical.

 

Christopher Columbus, technically known as Cristoforo Colomobo, is one of my most hated national holiday figures. This man is portrayed to be a man with the morality of a Saint and the hero who "discovered" the American continents. He was a bloody fool. He only discovered America because he made a huge mathematical error in his calculations as to how far it would take to sail. He estimated that the world was 25% smaller than it was and that Asia was 15% bigger than it is! When he landed he thought he was on Asia!

 

The man was also apparently a hugely greedy one. It took him over 4 years to get a nation to sponsor his journey because he demanded SOOOO much. No one in his or her right minds who was sailing at the time for discovery would have asked for what Columbus wanted. (I have the full details of what he wanted if anyone is interested.) Add to his greediness there was a prize to the first man who spotted "Asia" from the ship. A crewman on the ship spotted the land at dawn, but Columbus cheated him out of his prize by saying that he had seen it the night before, just not told anyone.

 

To add to Mr. Columbus' sainthood he had a love child with a woman who was not his wife, then hid the child in a monastery in Spain because he didn't want to admit to his adultery. This child is rarely if ever mentioned in what is called the "leading" books on Columbus because they don't want to admit to his cheating ways.

 

Want to hear Columbus' words to the King and Queen of Spain that he wrote down when he first saw the Native Americans?

 

"They would make fine servants, and they are intelligent, for I saw that they repeated everything said to them. I believe they could easily be made Christians, for they would appear to have no idols."

 

Later in his log...

 

"But, should your Majesties command it, all the inhabitants could be taken away to Castile (Spain), or made slaves on the island. With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want."

 

Those are Columbus' own words. Take your pick as to their meaning.

 

One of Columbus' ships crashed on their first expedition and Columbus, needing supplies, managed to actually trick the head of a Native American tribe into believing it was his fault! The Indians, feeling horrid, brought Columbus food and gifts because they didn't want Columbus to be upset with them.

 

On Columbus' second voyage, he captured 500 Native Americans to be used as Slaves in Spain. Only 300 survived the journey and the remaining 200 died of very quickly due to diseases native to Europe.

 

Rape. It was a very common thing for seamen to do and most books about Columbus pass it off as 'boys will be boys'. Although it may have been common for the time what is failed to have been mentioned by nearly all books is the transference of syphilis thanks to these rapes. Native American tribes were ravaged by this disease thanks to Columbus' men. Millions would die before syphilis would begin to quell itself in the Native American tribe.

 

Columbus would in the future set up a colony of seamen there and his policy was simple. Either the Indians went out and found gold, or their hands were chopped off. Over 125,000 Indians were killed by Columbus and his men in their greedy search for gold.

 

 

By the end of Columbus' life it is believed that he had gone mentally insane. On his last voyager Columbus found a monkey, and chopped off its arms. Then he proceeded to throw the monkey into a pit of wild boars to watch the monkey try to save itself from the wild animals. Columbus wrote in his logs to the King and Queen that he enjoyed watching the dieing monkey struggle for its life and then is killed by the boars.

 

If anyone wishes to question my facts, I have sources to back each one of them. If you’re interested in the entire story of Columbus' life, contact me. Columbus is a passion of mine.

 

I hate Columbus Day. I consider Columbus to be a man who's morals were not there, who's attitude about what his men could do to women shocking, and who is portrayed by American textbooks to be a great hero who wrongly deserves our respect.

[Vex Xiang 0]

Lots of information Garnoopy, very interesting reading.

 

I'm sure lots of our "heros" are falsely represented in history. As Im sure the villians in our history are also. It all depends on who writes the history books.

[Garnoopy 0]

I'm sure lots of our "heros" are falsely represented in history. As Im sure the villians in our history are also. It all depends on who writes the history books.

You have no idea Vex. No idea.

 

President Richard Nixon. Nixon was one of the greatest civil rights presidents of all times. But you didn't learn that did you? Everyone believes that it was Eisenhower, who was in the presidency when Brown Vs. Topkea Board of Education occured, but in reality Eisenhower didn't enforce the decision. Or they believe it was Kennedy, but that is wrong also. When Nixon went into the Presidency 83% of the Southern schools were still segragated. By working hard and enforcing the laws Nixon got that number down to 13% when he left.

 

The media fails to tell you this information about Nixon because of Watergate, it's all about what sells. And your history textbooks don't often mention it (college ones more likely, high school and lower less likely) because Watergate outshines it.

 

The media twists facts to earn money. The day you trust the media and what they say is the day you throw all of true history and facts out of the window.

[Travis Kroells 0]

I have more then a few things to say

 

First of, I completly agree with you Garnoopy.  Millions of "Acording to Fred" native Russians, died, to slavary, and infanticide.  Whats infanticde you say?  Well columbus made life such a living hell that parents would kill their own children, to prevent them from growing up subject to the missionaries and other "eastern" ideas.

 

If theres one thing that infuriates me the most about columbus, and almost the rest of the christain world, is the fact that we carry this "white mans burden" the need to christainize every "savage" and "idol worshiping" culture we find.  

 

When Cortez landed on modern day Mexico, he ran across the Aztec empire.  The war like people would have killed him, like all others, except that they thought he was a god, they invited him to their grand city, and how did he repay them?  He tore down the idols, and eventually tensions grew so much, that a massicure of the Aztec people took place.

 

America did it in the early 1900's with their imperialist expansion in the pacific.  They say that Binladin, and Islam are our enemies, that they bomb our embassys, and kill our tourists.  Have we ever thought of what caused those terrorists atacks on use?  In the 1990's with the Soviet Unions miltary expansion into the middle east, the use sought to stop them, so they sent wepons, and troops to Afganistan.  Eventaully, both Russia, and America pulled out, leaving a war torn Afganistan, open and easy to prey by people like the Taliban.

 

Maybe, just maybe if we stayed on our side of the pond, and let Israil deal with Palistine, and let the middle east deal with them self, maybe they wouldnt hate us so much?  What gives us the right to go into the middle east, and just atack Iraq, and other contrys with no sound proof?  Is it our god given right?  To make the world a better place?  It makes me sick.

 

America is the common evil in the 21st century.  Yes, the Taliban, Al quida, The Jihad Muslums are Terrorists, and yes they should be stoped.  But why do we need to be the world police?

 

I've seen to strayed from the topic a bit.  I say these things, because Colombus was a clasic example, of a foriegn stranger coming in, and forcing perfectly normal people to become christians, what if they didnt want to?  What if they'd rather risk eternal damnation, for their beliefs.  

 

Colombus was evil, and he died the way he should have, pennyless and alone.  He never discovered America, and it might have been better off if he didnt discover any thing at all, maybe he would have delayed the small pox, and the white mans burden by a couple of decades.

 

And if your offended by that, run to a GM, they'll remove the post, and I'll finaly have my proof that people are not alowed to speak their mind.

[Vex Xiang 0]

The war like people would have killed him, like all others, except that they thought he was a god, they invited him to their grand city, and how did he repay them?

 

Actually a bit of interesting info on native american cultures. They often believed the europeans were "gods" simply because they possessed things not natural to their own society - horses and guns. Indian chiefs displayed their god-like status by adorning themselves with things not found in the immediate area. These possessions were unnatural, and therefore supernatural. Hence why they believed the europeans were gods, not ordinary men.

 

The indians DID want to incorporate christianity into their religion. Because with the new religion, they would recieve all kinds of great stuff. Unfortunately they also wanted to keep their own gods as well, which was unacceptable to the invading europeans.

[Nemesis 0]

Actually almost every single political icon in History is falsely represented because their lifes are usually based upon the most famous thing they had accomplished in their life time not by the full story of their lives. It is pretty easy to see why they would do such a thing because they want people to think a certain way and to give the idealogy that they live in the perfect place which can not be further from the truth.

 

We learned in Sociology the other day about the Nacirema culture which ranges from the Canadian cree to the Tarahumare of Mexico, yes this is located in the United States and I'm sure almost none of you have ever heard of them but you see them everyday walking down the streets. Nacirema if you haven't noticed is American spelled backwards if you want the paper we read on it email me for it at [email protected] and I'll glady send it to you it is very interesting read so I recommend reading it for it gives you a differant perspective on your society :D

 

As for Columbus I do not despise him or dislike him for he sounded like the typical man of the period. If Columbus did not discover the Americas yes someone most likely would have discovered it but more then likely the exact same as Columbus and done a lot of the same things. Face it people we are doing the same thing today. Capturing slaves is no differant then charging some kid in a 3rd world country ten cents an hour to make shoes and with adultry come on I'm sure you all know of someone who has cheated. Making people conform to the rules of the Christain religion is no differant then sending troops to a country because they did or didn't do something you liked. Greed I don't think I'd even need to go into that one our entire society is based on the fact.

 

The entire U.S government is controlled by the arms department and former presidents have admitted to this. America has never been out of an armed conflict since the second world war which must show you something. World War 2, Cold War, Korean War, Vietnam, still in cold war, cuban missle crisis, gulf war, Kosovo, continued bombings on Iraq for 12 years, Taliban and war on terrorism, 2nd Gulf war. I may have the order messed up and some missing but that just shows you the amount of fighting America has done in just over half a century. We in North America constantly think the world is at peace because these events don't effect us when the truth is they better our lives bringing in revenue of arms trades and agreements. When you look at these numbers who are the real terrorists in this society?

[Images 0]

Maybe, just maybe if we stayed on our side of the pond, and let Israil deal with Palistine, and let the middle east deal with them self, maybe they wouldnt hate us so much?  What gives us the right to go into the middle east, and just atack Iraq, and other contrys with no sound proof?  Is it our god given right?  To make the world a better place?  It makes me sick.

 

America is the common evil in the 21st century.  Yes, the Taliban, Al quida, The Jihad Muslums are Terrorists, and yes they should be stoped.  But why do we need to be the world police?

There is no ONE rule with anything. Especially when it comes to world policy. What i DO believe however is that countries like the US shouldn't go guns blazing into every government they disagree with. However in some situations i do believe that the little guy needs some help. A classic situation is palestine, something i feel very strongly about. The Israeli settlers are moving further and further into palestinian land, then setting up road blocks and walls. Palestinian government members are assassinated by Israeli helicopter gunships but the word assassinate is never used. Kids throwing stones and kids in their homes are shot by israeli troops. When they are killed it is said that a "'youth' died" before moving onto an amusing news story about dancing squirells. When a hamas made bomb goes off in a cafe though, even though the people there are just as innocent as the palestinian dead. the news crams round them for half an hour and says several "LITTLE CHILDREN died, not youths. The world news networks and most world governments are set to ignore the horrific situation going on. They talk of the situation but they never do a damn thing. Where are the UN peacekeepers? Where are the proper legal boundries being set? Where are the war crimes tribunals for Sharon and his cronies? Nowhere. THAT is a situation i would vote for US help in, not Iraq.

[Zertz 0]

Furthermore, like it or not, if there had been no Columbus, there would not have been British Colonies, there would not have been a revolt by British citizens and there wouldn't have been a United States of America.

I'm still rather displeased about said revolt. An Empire was broken up, personal damages to British shipping and Loyalists, and the rebirth of Democracy leading to the current form without proper checks and balances to compensate for the stupidity of the public.

 

 Now on to ol' Chris, I'm not sure if he should get a day to his own, although I'll leave that up to Americans, but I do not find him to be all that great when compared to James Cook, Hernan Cortez, or Henry Hudson.

[Images 0]

Furthermore, like it or not, if there had been no Columbus, there would not have been British Colonies, there would not have been a revolt by British citizens and there wouldn't have been a United States of America.

I'm still rather displeased about said revolt. An Empire was broken up,

Well not really, the real symbol of the end of the empire was India's freedom. The Jewel in the crown so to speak

[Garnoopy 0]

Colombus was evil, and he died the way he should have, pennyless and alone.  

Columbus did not die pennyless and alone, thats one of the largest misconseptions that is taught in history these days.

 

Columbus held two titles that were granted to him by the King and Queen of Spain for his discoveries. The King and Queen never removed his titles, though they did suggest he use them less often. Although, the King did refuse to give Columbus 10% of the wealth from trading with the new colonies, Columbus only recieved 2%. However, at this time in history, 2% of that income was a huge amount. Columbus recieved the last rights from a Catholic priest in his home. He died rich.

 

Travis, I disagreed with quite a few of your points in your post. I thought it was welly written but this isn't the topic to respond them.

 

A note to everyone, lets try to keep this topic on Columbus. If you wish to discuss something about the United States and the reasons it polices the world in matters than seemingly none of their buisness, then that is another topic.

[Grom 0]

If you wish to discuss something about the United States and the reasons it polices the world in matters than seemingly none of their buisness, then that is another topic.

Incorrect.  That is a topic to be taken elsewhere than these boards.

 

Thank You.

:D

 

 

Furthermore, I request that we would be careful in our responses to this topic.  The repsonses themselves are becoming quite volitile.  The subject is Columbus...let's keep it at that.  Thanks!  :cool:

[Atragon9 0]

And if your offended by that, run to a GM, they'll remove the post, and I'll finaly have my proof that people are not alowed to speak their mind.

 

My, my, my...

 

Allow me to REPEAT myself.  The GM monitoring/editing/removing of posts has nothing to do with allowing people to "speak their mind."  If someone starts discussing issues or making statements that are felt to be inappropriate for this Forum and its audience, then actions will be taken.  

 

Who decides where the line is between appropriate and inappropriate?  The GM Council.  

 

Who died and made them King?  No one, but as the Boards have been set up by the Council for the Forum's use (to foster a "community" and discuss our common love of Star Trek), the Council gets to decide what stays and what goes.  If this is terribly offensive to people, we're sorry - but we aren't going to change it.

 

There, I've said it (again)!  This is not news to anyone, it's just a reminder of what you already know.

 

(and the only reason, *I* don't like Columbus Day is that it isn't a big enough holiday for my office to give me tomorrow off from work ::sigh:: )

[Zertz 0]

And Boba Fett!

[Nemesis 0]

The one thing that really surprises me is the absolute maturity that has occurred in this bored not a single personal attack its amazing good work guys :D

[Dumbass 0]

(and the only reason, *I* don't like Columbus Day is that it isn't a big enough holiday for my office to give me tomorrow off from work ::sigh:: )[/size]

Yeah, you said it.  Most people still have to work but the banks and government offices are still closed.  I hate "holidays" like this.

[Merina 0]

I think bad enough that I have to go to school on Columbus Day. But I don't think he's a hero, because he and his men brought smallpox to North America.

[Nemesis 0]

It's April fools day that is a holiday that requires the day off school and work to get some pranks and antics on the way :D

[Dumbass 0]

OK, in honor of Columbus Day I thought I would post one of my favorite marching cadences from the Army called Colombo.  There are several variations out there of this popular cadence but this is the cleanest version.

 

***

 

In fourteen hundred and ninety-two

A beggar bound for college

Was roaming through the streets of Spain

And selling hot tamales

 

Chorus:

He said the world was round-o

He said it could be found-o

That hypothetical navigating son-of-a-gun Colombo

 

He marched right up to the Queen of Spain

Demanding ships and cargo

He said “I'll be a son of a gun

If I don't bring back Chicago!”

 

Chorus

 

Said Isabel to Ferdinand

”His plan sounds mighty hazy.”

Said Ferdinand to Isabel

”I think the sucker's crazy!”

 

Chorus

 

The queen she gave him three great ships

They all were triple deckers.

The queen she waved her hankerchief

Columbo waved his sweater.

 

Chorus

 

Columbo had a ship's cook

Yes he was a cooking.

He slipped a rat in the pot

When no one was a-lookin!

 

Chorus