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ens_tino

Is Columbis a real hero?

Is Columbis a real hero?   7 members have voted

  1. 1. Is Columbis a real hero?

    • Yes
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    • No
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    • Sort of
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97 posts in this topic

so you guys don't get off on Columbus day eh maybe I should gloat about it being thanks giving day up here and oh that day off of school feels sooooo nice and relaxing hmmmm hmmmm :D

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I get off on Columbus Day but I still dont think it should be celebrated/

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Hey there,

 

Let me ask this in response to numerous remarks people have made here. If Columbus hadn't informed Europe of North America, who would have?

 

I stand by my earlier remarks, the foundation of the British Colonies is directly tied to the "learning" there was indeed a North America. "Spain's" naming of new colonies prompted other countries to do the same. An ancient version of "the great race" had started. Who can get what, where and how fast decided everything. The entire concept of who would be the "known world's" superpower was in dispute. This prompted financial backing for things people probably wouldn't have supported earlier.

 

As for the issue of the origin of "Native Americans," I stand by my information.  Doing some quick research just now, I haven't found anything showing that even those in South America did not migrate there. But as previously said, not the primary focus of this discussion. :D

 

As for American policy, that's gone round and round. That's an issue, as GromVik mentioned, I don't think it's proper to get into that debate on these boards. :D

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I think the information that Vex had was misunderstood and what he was referring to was that there were 2 separate migrations of native peoples to the Americas the first was in an earlier ice age which is the most common we learn about where where we get most native americans and south americans the second was about a few thousand years later where we gain out inuit peoples as most of you know as Eskimo which is a term no longer used as they found it insulting to be called the eaters of raw fish. I hope I cleared things up :D

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Our basic problem may be that Columbus wasn't the benevolent explorer that high school textbooks want him to have been, but a man in search of profit, whatever the consequences.  (Think, Ferengi on the sea).

 

There was a suggestion in a letter to the Boston Globe to rename Columbus Day as Explorers Day, and use it to honor all explorers, including American astronauts.  It would de-emphasize any individuals' contributions or lack thereof (many of the early explorers'/Conquistadors' actions don't conform to modern ethical considerations), and put the emphasis on an idea.  It might also give us a day to memorialize Apollo I, Challenger, Columbia, and honor all the successful missions.  And, we'd still get the day off work.  It's not happening any time soon, but... any thoughts?

 

[PS - makes a lot more sense than naming Sept 11 "Patriot Day"]

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I stand by my earlier remarks, the foundation of the British Colonies is directly tied to the "learning" there was indeed a North America. "Spain's" naming of new colonies prompted other countries to do the same. An ancient version of "the great race" had started. Who can get what, where and how fast decided everything. The entire concept of who would be the "known world's" superpower was in dispute. This prompted financial backing for things people probably wouldn't have supported earlier.

The "superpowers" in the so-called Age of Exploration were Spain and Portugal.  At the time the western hemisphere had not been mapped out (hence the term: exploration).  I forget the reason why, although it was probably to prevent a territorial war,  (I'll admit my history is a bit rusty and probably skewed by the publik edjukashun system.) but it was actually the Pope who drew a line on a map - such as they existed back then - and said "This side belongs to Portugal, this side belongs to Spain".  It turned out that the two new continents were a lot larger than anyone had thought and all Portugal was assigned was a large chunk of modern-day Brazil.  The rest belonged to Spain, including all of North America, although for whatever reason they pretty much left what is now Canada and the eastern United States alone.  (Maybe it was just lack of resources.  Settling a continent and a half must have been expensive.)  

 

The Brittish, French, Dutch, et. al didn't have the military might for serious colonization efforts in North America until the British Navy routed the Spanish Navy.  Britain could not have colonized North America until they first had control of the North Atlantic.    (Anyone can send a few ships across the ocean, but if you want a permenant settlement it takes a way of resupplying them and protecting those sea lanes and outposts with a strong navy.)  This didn't happen until a long time after Columbus's voyages.  

 

So I'll stand by *my* statement that whether the New World ended up being discovered by Columbus in 1492 or some other Spain-financed trip a few years later makes little difference in how the world looks today.  At most a delay in discovery would have meant less territory disputed with Mexico in the Mexican-American war which would have given the United States control of our continent even sooner.

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If Columbus hadn't informed Europe of North America, who would have?

 

Someone else, obviously :D

 

I just fail to see the logic in connecting Columbus with the founding of America. America was founded from British Colonies, not Spanish ones. You're saying that Spain and Spain alone was interested in founding colonies, and suddenly Britain thought it would be a good idea directly from Spain's decisions?

 

If a British explorer had discovered the Americas, British colonies would have been placed there. Any government at the time with sufficient resources was interested in expanding their territory. It wasn't a new idea Spain came up with and everyone jumped on the bandwagon.

 

And Columbus wasn't the only explorer on the ocean. The American Continent is pretty big and it would have been discovered eventually...give or take a few decades perhaps.

 

My information about the migrations comes from university anthropology studies. I trust information coming from those who are professionals in the field. Don't forget there are a lot of misconceptions and incorrect information out there, especially if you're getting your info from the web.

 

I love the idea of renaming it to Explorers Day. Sounds corny actually, maybe they could come up with a better name for it? We really should honor more than just one explorer who crashed into the wrong island.

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Columbus never actually dicovered the Country america which a huge missconception out there he actually discovered the Islands in the gulf of mexico and South America.  :D

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I forget the reason why, although it was probably to prevent a territorial war,  (I'll admit my history is a bit rusty and probably skewed by the public education system.) but it was actually the Pope who drew a line on a map - such as they existed back then - and said "This side belongs to Portugal, this side belongs to Spain.  It turned out that the two new continents were a lot larger than anyone had thought and all Portugal was assigned was a large chunk of modern-day Brazil.  The rest belonged to Spain, including all of North America, although for whatever reason they pretty much left what is now Canada and the eastern United States alone.

Actually, this was called the Line of Demarcation, issued by Pope Alexander VI. It didn't run along lines of latitude (horizonal) - it actually ran along lines of longitude (vertical).

 

It started at the arctic pole, and went to the Antartic pole, 100 leagues (about 345 miles) west of the Azores and Cape Verde Islands.

 

Anything west of the line belonged to Spain. Anything to the east belonged to Portugal (There was an exception: If any Christian king or power already had in these areas by Christmas Day, 1493, then the lands belonged to that power).

 

Obviously, Spain got the better deal, with about 3 times as much land area than Portugal. There were disagreements over this within the next several years, when it was found that more land existed much further west of the line than it did east. In the years to follow, the Line of Demarcation was moved, giving both European powers more equal land area in the Americas. The move was called the Treaty of Tordesillas, where the line was moved 270 leagues (about 932 miles) farther west.

 

The Brittish, French, Dutch, et. al didn't have the military might for serious colonization efforts in North America until the British Navy routed the Spanish Navy.  Britain could not have colonized North America until they first had control of the North Atlantic.

Spain lost their Navy power in 1588, when Phillip II (of Spain) launched his Spanish Armada against Elizabeth I (of England), to attempt a takeover... or at least to turn England back into a Catholicism rule (it was currently an Anglican Church nation).

 

With a bad storm destroying many of Spain's Armada, England took care of the rest. That virtually ended Spain's dominate power in Europe. To this day, Spain has never returned to the power it once was.

 

It was then that Brittain had majority of the control of the seaways. Denmark actually had the greatest shipping vessels, but England had the Navy vessels.

 

So I'll stand by *my* statement that whether the New World ended up being discovered by Columbus in 1492 or some other Spain-financed trip a few years later makes little difference in how the world looks today.

I'll completely agree with that, except that there is a good chance the Americas would have been discovered by another country, and we all could be speaking French right now. Eventually, people would realize that the earth was round... either with some ship going off course in 1590, or some crazed airplane pilot flying to "certain death" toward the edge of the world in 2034. In the end, IMHO the Americas would have been found sooner or later.

 

Columbus never actually dicovered the Country america which a huge missconception out there he actually discovered the Islands in the gulf of mexico and South America.  :D

 

And that's correct, also. He actually landed in South America only once. Of his four voyages to the Americas, Columbus landed in the Bahamas and some of Central America. Never once did he land on what we now call the United States of America. He landed on northern South America and southern North America.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong... I think I got it right, but... ::shrug::

 

~HD

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I think so HD. But I wouldnt assume we'd be speaking French. Brittain colonized New England, what we consider America today. Whether the original discoverer was working for Spain, France, or Antarcticans, we have no reason not to assume things wouldn't have gone the same way.

 

Here's an example to further my point. Germans invented the rocket, which was the basis of all future rockets. Is that to say that if the Germans had never invented the rocket, we would have never landed on the moon? There's no connection there, as there's no evidence that shows no one would have also invented the rocket if Germany had not.

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Well if Columbus didnt discover America then why in the world were we being told that. Since we started learning about him in school we always were always told he discovered America and he was great and he was a hero when in my opinion he was a person who started up slavery and was the cause of all that stuff.

 

This is why I told Nem our school system is screwed up.

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Actually France at the time of british colonization had most of the control of Canada and if only incredibly small things had happened to have been differant America would be a french speaking nation like Quebec (I know they aren't a nation but they think they are :D). I myself am Bilingual because of my French heritage for right above New England was Acadia and New France. New France was the Quebec region mainly based in Montreal off the St. Lawerence river. Acadia was the area now known as P.E.I, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and parts of northern Maine. Those living in Acadia were mostly neutral farmers siding with neither France nor Britin this of course was a weakening point for the french. The  Natives at the time were also sided to either British or The French.

 

Things went on such as betrayal and wars which lead to the British getting the upper hand and conquering New France and sending both side of the Natives into reserves and placing the Acadians who did not wanted to stay neutral and not side with Britin were placed on boats and sent to the swamp lands of America the later changed their names to the Cajuns. After a winter the English were dying off because of an ailment known as scurvy brought on by a lack of vitamen "C". They then allowed members to return to the Acadia lands if they would teach them how to survive in the Harsh conditions of Canada because the natives refused to do so.

 

Some of the Acadians did return and help the English but were only allowed to live in Coastal communities where Farming was difficult and the main source of income was by fishing which they had done. I hope you all enjoyed the co- US/Canada history lesson which I'm sure you weren't taught in school if you were an American that is :D

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He discovered the Americas which later led to the discovery of the United States and Canada :D

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I was just using the "speaking French" thing as an example, showing that things could be considerably different now if Columbus hadn't shown Europe the way to the Americas. I would agree that, in the end, we would still be speaking English (for at least a little while). But, during WWII, USA sided with England (even before the Pearl Harbor attack).

 

So, in the long run, we still could be considerably different. But, once again, it's pure speculation. :D Actually, I'd agree with you for the most part, Vex.

 

~HD

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Well if Columbus didnt discover America then why in the world were we being told that. Since we started learning about him in school we always were always told he discovered America and he was great and he was a hero when in my opinion he was a person who started up slavery and was the cause of all that stuff.

 

This is why I told Nem our school system is screwed up.

You're getting a more in-depth analysis here than anything in a grade school or high school textbook.  We're asking the "If this thing had happened a different way what would be the result?" questions that SHOULD be discussed in history class, but aren't - until you get to the college level, and then there is a lot of unlearning to do.  

 

The problem, as I see it, is that history teachers concentrate too much on individuals and dates and events and not enough on the trends and situations and underlying fundamentals of WHY those events happened in the first place.  (Even when they do it is very superficial.)  That takes analysis, clear-thinking, and a willingness to challenge preconceptions that many high school students aren't capable of, and even a smaller percentage of high school teachers are.

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Actually Dumbass in my Highschool our history teachers teach like university teachers because they are people who actually have archeaology degrees and liscense and such things. I also have learned a lot of what I know on history on my own because that is one of my loves in life :D

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The problem, as I see it, is that history teachers concentrate too much on individuals and dates and events and not enough on the trends and situations and underlying fundamentals of WHY those events happened in the first place.  (Even when they do it is very superficial.)  That takes analysis, clear-thinking, and a willingness to challenge preconceptions that many high school students aren't capable of, and even a smaller percentage of high school teachers are.

Hey there,

 

I would agree with you here. However, I don't even think they're getting the dates/other material right. In a day in age when half of America's kids can't name the three branchs of the Federal government, I see a problem.

 

But going to a review of "why" things happen, as this board can show, enters into intepertations of history. Do you think person A did this because of B or C? Did choosing B cause E or would have have resulted in F? Such debate is something I firmly believe is absent from school's today. Yet, on the flip side, as an educator I can tell you what most would say in response. "How do you give a test on an opinion?"

 

Sadly, most folks wouldn't be able to fairly grade a person's opinion if they were totally against it. The concept of "Agree to disagree" is something most people can't comprehend. In my view, it's what makes America great. :D  We're free to disagree and neither of us are going to get shot because of it.

 

On Columbus, I'm not saying that eventually the Americas wouldn't have been found. I am saying that their discovery started a chain of events that eventually lead to the formation of the United States. Change a few variables, a few dates and you may find that Washington's cross of the Delaware might have happened in Summer vs Winter. :D

 

My overall point is this. Columbus' location of this "new world" and Spain's claim to it started a free-for-all. The concept of who was the world's superpower was now totally in debate. Why? Because it had just been learned there was new/undiscovered lands/resources. As a result, money that might not normally have been granted for exploration was spent. Risks that might not have been normally acceptable were all of a sudden okay.

 

Let me try to phrase it this way. At the moment, let's assume NASA holds a budget of 3 million dollars. Tomorrow, top scientists announce they've discovered that one of Mars' moons is covered with frozen petroleum. Since this is one of the most critical resources on Earth, and really does impact who is who on the world scene, kind of an important discovery. China announces they're going to make a claim to the resources. How long do you think it would take for NASA's budget to increase 3,000%?

 

There is now a reason to spend money in exploration and research. Before, it was a nice little thing to do but not really all that important. I submit the same holds true for the 1400s. Exploration was fine...but most people assumed all the land had been claimed. Then, what do you know, Spain says "Hey suckers...we got more land!"

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I would agree with you here. However, I don't even think they're getting the dates/other material right. In a day in age when half of America's kids can't name the three branchs of the Federal government, I see a problem.

::raises hand::  Oh, I know it teacher!  The three branches of government are the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria!

 

Sorry, I just couldn't resist. :laugh:

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Oh, I know it teacher!  The three branches of government are the Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria!

 

I thought the 3 branches were Republican, Democrat, and Schwarzenegger   :D  

 

Thanks for clearing up what you meant Fred. I agree.

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Anyway...so now that Columbus Day is almost over...and since celebrating it was a debate here...

 

...did anyone do anything for Columbus Day?

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My overall point is this. Columbus' location of this "new world" and Spain's claim to it started a free-for-all. The concept of who was the world's superpower was now totally in debate. Why? Because it had just been learned there was new/undiscovered lands/resources. As a result, money that might not normally have been granted for exploration was spent. Risks that might not have been normally acceptable were all of a sudden okay.

Now here I disagree (again).  It did not become a free-for-all overnight  It took several centruies, and by the time we won our independence from England the New World still wasn't done being carved up.  (Jefferson predicted it would take 1,000 years to fully settle and develop the Louisianna Purchase.)  I'm sure the other European countries would have loved for it to be an instant free-for-all, but at the time Spain was the only nation with the resources to send explorers AND set up outposts AND establish resuply routes AND defend these routes and outposts from the other European nations.

 

But you do have a point that exploration for the sake of exploration was virtually nil.  It wasn't until there was the promise of a significant economic payoff - whether it was the settlement of new resource-rich lands or merely a more efficient route to lands already explored - to offset those risks that exploration and new settlements slowly got under way by the other European nations.  (One wonders why China and Japan didn't try to settle the New World from across the Pacific but that's another matter.)  

 

It takes more than a budget transfer to make that kind of change happen.  Allocating more money to be spent on wood to build ships doesn't help if the supply of wood available for ship-building remains fixed.  The only thing that does is increase the price of wood.  That's what economists call inflation, although the European countries were still operating under a mercantilist economic philosophy so they might not have seen it as that.  However, it took time for the other European countries to divert not just capital but natural resources (using coal as a fuel source instead of wood, etc.) and labor toward the development and protection of colonies, and many countries (Germany, Italy, etc) just didn't think it was worth the effort.

 

Today those kinds of changes can take place in a few years, maybe a decade (as what happened with the moon launch).  But in the 15th and 16th centuries these changes took significantly longer.

 

And I spent most of Columbus Day writing about history.  (I wonder if a National Boss Day poll would start this much debate?)  :laugh:

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Woah there's 3 branches of the American Federal government I don't know them all I know there's the Senate and then the president I don't know that much on the American political system. :D

 

You americans need debates in the classroom they are so much fun and mock trails and simulations are right up there beside them. I guess I'm at an advantage over most American childeren. Agree to disagree is probably the most dangerous things out there because that teaches nothing it does not allow you to formulate your own opinions only those you were taught by your parents and other people. :D

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Woah there's 3 branches of the American Federal government I don't know them all I know there's the Senate and then the president I don't know that much on the American political system. :D

sys*tem:  (n) 1. a set or arrangement of things so related or connected as to form a unity or whole; 2. a set of facts, principles, rules, etc. classified or arranged in a regular, orderly form so as to show a logical plan linking the various parts; 3. a method or plan of classification or arrangement; 4. a) an established way of doing something; method; procedure; :D orderliness or methodical planning in one's way of proceeding;...

 

I'm afraid American politics doesn't qualify.   :)

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Anyway...so now that Columbus Day is almost over...and since celebrating it was a debate here...

 

...did anyone do anything for Columbus Day?

I spent five days in New York City, most memorable was a picture with the Naked Cowboy in Time Square ;-)

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