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Atragon9

Slogging through Voyager

27 posts in this topic

Okay, yeah, I know I'm the Forum Leader for the STAR TREK Simulation Forum, but there were some Trek series that I had avoided (yes, Bad Admiral, Baaad BAAAD). So, I recently ran through DS9 (great fun, silly Prophet musings) and Enterprise (interesting development of the technology, nice battleship-grey deck plating and bulkheads, but I do wonder where he keeps getting all this fresh food in deep space without having replicators or a giant hydroponics bay).

 

Anyway, I am now five seasons through Voyager and it's a tough one to deal with. I suppose my biggest issue is Kate Mulgrew. She is really not a good Captain and she is constantly changing her command style - often within the same episode.

 

This was brought home to me with the Season 4-5 cliffhanger episodes, "Equinox." John Savage plays the Captain of the Equinox and it really shows what a decent actor can do with the material (even Titus Welliver {LOST's Man in Black, anyone?} dose a great job as the Equinox XO). In this episode, Janeway goes from eager to meet the other CO and showing him how she follows SF rules to hating the guy to the point where she simply stops following the rules she swears to, even to the point of torturing of a Starfleet officer! She even relieves Chakotay of duty and then, at the end, simply reinstates him and no one seems to mind. Now, I do realize that this is the writer's fault, not the actors', but she doesn't make the writing believable. Why is the crew following her after all the missed opportunities to get closer to home and all the times she seems to contradict her own statements and beliefs. She is not likable or believable.

 

She doesn't get to shoulder all the blame, however. Here it is, five years into this grueling mission and the only person whose rank has changed is Tom Paris who was busted to Ensign (for a pretty slight infraction). Why isn't Harry Kim a Lt., why isn't B'Lanna Torres a Lt. Commander? Why did we lose Kes, an interesting character, and get Seven of Nine (well, we *DO* know why that character was added, it was to save on yards of uniform material). Why is B'Lanna still *SO* angry after five years? Why are the Doctor and Neelix being given so much extra responsibility (again, it's because they are two good actors, but it makes no sense that we aren't getting to know more members of the crew).

 

Yes, I am going to force-feed myself the last two seasons, but don't ask me to like it. I do not mean this as an insult to anyone here who likes Voyager, I mean it as an insult to the writers and some of the actors, blecch.

 

::dons his flame-retardant BVDs::

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::guides the Rescue chopper in with signal flares::

 

Admiral, you're re-confirming what we all know, or realize after so many years of being a fan (in my case at least): Star Trek has good points and bad points, and all the series' just don't appeal to all fans.

 

Good luck with the final VOY seasons, but promise us you won't jump out a window if it gets too bad.

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Just wait till you get to the series finale. It pretty much puts all of your issues into one pretty 2 hour package. And better yet, it has two Janeways. ^_^

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Best tread lightly around Huff though Admiral, she's a sworn Voyager fan! (though I think the coffee that Janeway was always drinking that might have lured her in).

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I suppose my biggest issue is Kate Mulgrew. She is really not a good Captain and she is constantly changing her command style - often within the same episode.

 

She has a command style?

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I suppose my biggest issue is Kate Mulgrew. She is really not a good Captain and she is constantly changing her command style - often within the same episode.

 

 

She has a command style?

 

LOL! Guys, tell us how you really feel!

 

This might be a whole other topic, but I'll throw it out: What exactly *is* a Star Trek command style? Can we define it point by point? Is it the actor or character or the writers?

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LOL! Guys, tell us how you really feel!

 

This might be a whole other topic, but I'll throw it out: What exactly *is* a Star Trek command style? Can we define it point by point? Is it the actor or character or the writers?

 

Whatever feels 'right' on Tuesday.

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This might be a whole other topic, but I'll throw it out: What exactly *is* a Star Trek command style? Can we define it point by point? Is it the actor or character or the writers?

 

There is a "command presence" that a good leader must exhibit. This is not only for military, but from CEOs down the dept heads and teachers in the classroom. When that person enters the room you know without a doubt that he/she is in charge. Some of this is the character, some is the writer, but most of it is the actor. Picard had a command presence, and Kirk did... to a certain degree.

 

What a command presence is *not* is acting like you're at a pajama party. My favorite quote came from my daughter, and I quote it freely.

 

"Mom, there's a reason why she's lost in space."

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What a command presence is *not* is acting like you're at a pajama party. My favorite quote came from my daughter, and I quote it freely.

 

"Mom, there's a reason why she's lost in space."

 

I love that! That's a great quote!

 

Similar to A-9's reaction to VOY, I don't care for TNG at this point in my fandom. Didn't start out that way as I followed the show during the original TV and movie runs, so I'm not sure what changed for me in the intervening years.

 

However, Captain Picard is The Command Presence. He is The Man.

 

To take a current actor/character example, Commander Taylor from "Terra Nova" has a definite command presence on the show.

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My biggest complaint with Voyager was physical: how, 70,000 light years from home, did the ship manage to get repaired to pristine condition after every episode? Having the ship starting to fall apart and age after seven years would have added an interesting dynamic, much like Season 3 of Enterprise actually gave us.

 

...and Enterprise (interesting development of the technology, nice battleship-grey deck plating and bulkheads, but I do wonder where he keeps getting all this fresh food in deep space without having replicators or a giant hydroponics bay).

Not sure it's ever stated outright, but they do have cargo bays to store products, and since they're not nearly as far away from home as in the other series, they'd be much closer to Earth and affiliated outposts, as well as the Earth merchant ship routes. Just a thought. Season 3 would be where this thought gets a bit dicey, though.

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My biggest complaint with Voyager was physical: how, 70,000 light years from home, did the ship manage to get repaired to pristine condition after every episode? Having the ship starting to fall apart and age after seven years would have added an interesting dynamic, much like Season 3 of Enterprise actually gave us.

 

I heard this best described on an NCIS episode of all places: 'Suspension of belief' with regard to TV shows or something like that. I know a running joke in fandom is how VOY kept an unlimited supply of shuttles?

 

It's rare that a modern science fiction TV show showcases possible/real problems of space travel and makes it entertaining at the same time (all 4 seasons of Battlestar Galactica, season 3 of Enterprise, etc).

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Seems to me I remember A.C. Crispin telling us that science fiction should, most of all, be believable. Remember her totally disrupting the audience mood by laughing at the absurdity of Armageddon? She did calm down, fearing she and family would be ejected from the theater, but I remember that illustration really well. We laughed, too, hubby being a petroleum engineer and all. His reaction was more along the lines of, "What the....?"

 

Yeah, above all, science fiction should be believable. Voyager.... eh.

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Okay, yeah, I know I'm the Forum Leader for the STAR TREK Simulation Forum, but there were some Trek series that I had avoided (yes, Bad Admiral, Baaad BAAAD). So, I recently ran through DS9 (great fun, silly Prophet musings) and Enterprise (interesting development of the technology, nice battleship-grey deck plating and bulkheads, but I do wonder where he keeps getting all this fresh food in deep space without having replicators or a giant hydroponics bay).

 

Anyway, I am now five seasons through Voyager and it's a tough one to deal with. I suppose my biggest issue is Kate Mulgrew. She is really not a good Captain and she is constantly changing her command style - often within the same episode.

 

Well of course. Kate's only command experience before Voyager was being married to Columbo, and even that was pretend. She's an actress.

 

Tuvok made Lt. Commander. Paris not only disobeyed orders - That's a big thing in the military. It's not like he forgot to shine his shoes or something like that. - but he took interstellar diplomacy into his own hands. B'lanna had enough rank to function as CENG but by Starfleet rules she should have been a prisoner as a Marquis. Harry should have been promoted just to be in charge of the night shift. Voyager was his first assignment out of the Academy so someone who had been in service only a year more would have outranked him even if that other person was an Ensign too so he needed more rank to give orders to the night crew.

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My biggest complaint with Voyager was physical: how, 70,000 light years from home, did the ship manage to get repaired to pristine condition after every episode? Having the ship starting to fall apart and age after seven years would have added an interesting dynamic, much like Season 3 of Enterprise actually gave us.

 

The excuse would be replicators. If a shuttle gets a scratch on it, you just replicate a new one. So long as you've got a working replicator, your stuff can be as pristine and new as you want it to be. Lose the replicator, and you need bases and spare parts.

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The excuse would be replicators. If a shuttle gets a scratch on it, you just replicate a new one. So long as you've got a working replicator, your stuff can be as pristine and new as you want it to be. Lose the replicator, and you need bases and spare parts.

 

Yes and no. Voyager could replicate in theory shuttle parts to build shuttles save one critical part, the warp core. I do not believe antimattter can be replicated as well. But, warp cores could not be replicated. Why not? I use the open the can of worms theory? Voyager could of replicated torpedos left and right if it had to, and this was something that was just not allowable on Trek Series. Matter/Antimatter reaction chambers and their weaponized cousins were strictly ruled out, to my knowledge and a few people I've had a privledge of chatting with regards to the series.

 

I must confess, Star Trek is about characters and I should be doing what Atragon is doing pointing out issues with them. Yet, I am a strange person that feels that the ship it's self in a way is a character. Where as, Defiant, Ent-D, NCC-1701, NX-01 did repeatedly mention stops to resupply or repair; Voyager failed in my view in this respect. How often I wish Janeway's logs would of mentioned.."after stopping for repairs at a "whomever owns it" Space Station we are en-route -" It did not happen.

 

I think that is bad writing, given the story Voyager was meant to portray. Voyager should certainly looked of Equinox at the end of her journey (well before that radical overhaul), she was not "weathered" as computer artists called it. I was being asked to "suspend my belief" a bit too much thank you. The Ship was a fantastic design, nonetheless she should of shown 7 years of travel.

 

The Next Star Trek series "Enterprise" tried to correct this. Remember the mysterious "Robot Space Station Episode?" I was disappointed this show couldn't reach the full seven years hoping it would "click."

 

Ron Moore, a writer of Deep Space Nine wrote the best critique of Voyager I have seen. I think i have posted it before. He clearly took Voyager's pristine look example and went the extreme opposite direction with the critically acclaimed show he produced in another universe..

 

Precip

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Don't forget: replicators can't "poof" things out of nothing, nowhere - replication requires matter and matter is a limited commodity that must be replenished from somewhere. Yeah, in theory and with exceptions, you could replicate almost anything, if you've got the matter in your stores to do it.

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I think it's safe to say that replicating antimatter, if it is even replicatable, is going to be more complicated than replicating coffee (even really strong coffee). Plus you can't replicate something larger than the replicator itself.

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INTERESTING you made some good points

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Yes and no. Voyager could replicate in theory shuttle parts to build shuttles save one critical part, the warp core. I do not believe antimattter can be replicated as well. But, warp cores could not be replicated. Why not? I use the open the can of worms theory? Voyager could of replicated torpedos left and right if it had to, and this was something that was just not allowable on Trek Series. Matter/Antimatter reaction chambers and their weaponized cousins were strictly ruled out, to my knowledge and a few people I've had a privledge of chatting with regards to the series.

 

I must confess, Star Trek is about characters and I should be doing what Atragon is doing pointing out issues with them. Yet, I am a strange person that feels that the ship it's self in a way is a character. Where as, Defiant, Ent-D, NCC-1701, NX-01 did repeatedly mention stops to resupply or repair; Voyager failed in my view in this respect. How often I wish Janeway's logs would of mentioned.."after stopping for repairs at a "whomever owns it" Space Station we are en-route -" It did not happen.

 

 

Precip

 

You'd think they could use the need for repairs as a source for plot lines, at least.

 

I'm not sure I would say a ship is a character, but the ship and its culture does set an envelope of sorts on what sort of characters comfortably belong aboard. Some characters that can fit quite conformably on DS9 just wouldn't belong on Picard's Enterprise, and of course visa versa.

 

The future, of course, is changing, and not just with the latest movie turning things upside down. Gritty realist militarism is in. Hope, morality and optimism are out. I for one miss Roddenberry's vision, and am finding it harder to find places to role play classic Trek cultures and world views.

 

What does one do? I've found an off line Middle Earth game to get my idealism fix, and created an Orion character designed for a Firefly culture here. As not every modern cop TV show is for everybody, neither is every starship.

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While Atragon is allowed his opinion, if you can't get enough Voyager, you might try to Google "Voyager themed flat." It seems like a more appreciative fan than our Admiral spent a good deal of effort establishing a proper theme and flavor, but his girlfriend wants to sell.

 

Act fast. It might be on the market.

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While Atragon is allowed his opinion, if you can't get enough Voyager, you might try to Google "Voyager themed flat." It seems like a more appreciative fan than our Admiral spent a good deal of effort establishing a proper theme and flavor, but his girlfriend wants to sell.

 

Act fast. It might be on the market.

 

Heh. Can think of more practical things on which to spend $156,000, Trek fan or not.

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Hey Atragon...now that we have you slogging through Voyager, we need to get you to start from the beginning, as this will drive you crazy....Yes, the Voyager Counting Game.

 

In phase one, you get to try to count, just exactly, how many shuttles are totally lost, presumably lost, damaged beyond repair, damaged, or actually make it back in one piece. It's an amazing thing how many ships they can fit in their shuttle bay. Especially once you look at the Voyager Technical guide and see the types and sized. Now....remember to add in not one, but yes, they built themselves a 2nd Delta Flyer, Neelix's ship, a shuttle Chakotay stole from the Kazon, and other assorted crap.....and you'll swear that Voyager's shuttle bay must have actually been a Tardis.....bigger on the inside.

 

Phase 2 of the game entails counting Photon Torpedos. In one episidose, Janeway states that they are down to 38 torpedos, and "no way to replace them." From that point on....you start counting the stacks and stacks of torpedos that fit their tubes that must have just been floating around this part of space waiting for them......Ah....Nitpicking Heaven!

 

Phase 3: Count the crewmen! Somehow, they get more from somewhere....as the causualty rate rises in some episodes, later they magically have more!

 

Phase 4: How many times we have no power to run the ship, or use the replicators...but how much power are we using for the weekly holonovels??

 

Have fun!!

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Phase 4: How many times we have no power to run the ship, or use the replicators...but how much power are we using for the weekly holonovels??

 

Have fun!!

 

And miss my weekly 'Captain Proton' fix? Noooooooo!

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In fairness to Mulgrew, it wasn't her fault the writers were bad and didn't have a clue how to write her consistently.

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