On Cross-Sim Continuity

[Sorehl 0]

This is actually a thread begun under the Aegis boards, but it was a jump in the original topic and seemed to be open to a broader audience. I thought I'd post it here. I'll start with three posts that started these thoughts, add my own, and then leave it open to whoever.

 

The way I'll phrase the topic is: Is cross-sim continuity a good thing? Is it workable, just too difficult, or outright undesireable?

 

As background, Sky Harbor Aegis has been discussing how to build a Diplomatic Hub on the station. Some elements of "interstellar politics" came up in deciding who should have an embassy and how big it should be. This led to the topic of cross-sim continuity.

 

Actually it's a plot point that they [the Romulans] pulled most of their ambassadorial staff out of the Cardassian Region, as well as the joint Federation-Klingon-Romulan-Dominion Project Camelot in the Gamma Quadrant, as they're in a period of instability on the homeworld. Given the Romulan tendency to occasionally go into near complete isolation, it would be feasible for such an occurrence. ;)

 

However, as stated in my own earlier post, it wouldn't be prudent to assume that would continue to be the norm. It could be possible, if the Romulan government so chooses, that a larger ambassadorial staff could be sent. Till then though, the IC reality is somewhat similar to the OOC ;)

 

While it's nice that sims can share events and such I'd hate to make this prevent someone from taking the Romulan lead on Aegis just cause it doesn't "mesh" with what another sim is doing.

 

Cross sim stuff can be amusing. A while ago, Joy Twelve and USS Republic pulled into orbit around Cardassia Prime at a time when Joy Two and Sidega were down on the surface and Joy Eight was up on Aegis. I couldn't resist a log where they interacted. I've been playing the Joys for about 14 years now. There have been two other times when ships with Joys aboard have been in orbit around the same planet at the same time, once at Bajor, and once at Earth. It's a big galaxy, but it happens.

 

But I think one has to be flexible with time. A while ago, at slightly different times, both the Excalibur and Republic sims shut down the Bajor wormhole. Excalibur was fighting a war over the Gamma side wormhole exit, while the Republic's helm officer tried to enter the wormhole at warp, much to the dismay of The Prophets. Clearly, every sim in STSF can't cease to use the wormhole every time some other sim is abusing it. Similarly, there have been times when Sorehl has been active on both Aegis and Camelot, and at a time when the wormhole was allegedly closed.

 

I'd suggest we just be a bit flexible with time. There have been several characters Joy Two has met recently on Aegis that Five had encountered before on Camelot or Excalibur. I assume relationships formed in one sim might be continued when characters meet elsewhere, but it seems prudent to be vague on just how long ago prior meetings took place. Players might also take a little care in not explicitly inserting major events from one sim's time line that would impact another sim's politics too much. It might be amusing to have two characters talking about their experiences in the Scorpiad War, but should we force all Aegis diplomats to play their star nations consistently with the politics that fell out of an Excalibur plot line? I would say not. Any old war stories might be mentioned as long ago and far away, rather than as dominant recent events shaping current politics.

This is a great topic. Essentially, it poses a broader question: "What is canon?" for a particular sim. Does your sim accept the Star Trek: Enterprise depiction of the Andorians or the Pocket Books DS9 Relaunch version with its four genders? Is it useful to build on other sims' developments, like the complex post-war history for the Gamma Quadrant used by Excalibur, or is it more liberating to invent your own stuff and ignore (or contradict) what other sims are doing? Did Bajor join the Federation after DS9 (as in the Relaunch book series) or is it still independent? Do we have the right to kill off a major character like Chewbacca? (Sorry, wrong genre.)

 

Of course, I don't think there's a right answer for all players and all sims. But I'm interested in what other players think.

[Guest Laarell]

I very much am for cross-sim continuity. Characters and plots can overlap, and frankly, it's easier for me to keep track of things if there's only one "universe".

 

Addressing specifically the Andorian question, I usually try to reconcile the two vs. four gender question by saying that each of the four has similarities to traditional male and female, so in Enterprise, they appear and are referred to by pronouns that closest match "ours". I admit I haven't read much of DS9's relaunch, so my interpretation could be far off.

[Travis Kroells 0]

I think it's a lovely little complex subject. I kind of like the status quo for once however. It kinda seems that all of the ships, at least in the same time line run off the same basic cannon universe. It leaves room for sims to come together and do joint plots (Like the Arcadia-Talon one a while back) but also allows each sim to do what it wants without fear of being 'non-canon'.

 

I know that both the Excalibur, and Agincourt run a "tri-canon" timeline which basically has the two sims running the same canon timeline. From that, one would expect that if something major happens in Excalibur, it's likely to be reflected in some fashion on the 'Court, which takes place 14 years later.

 

My personal belief is that while cross-sim continuity is a good thing, it should also be left flexible. Major plot events on one sim (such as Earth being blown up, the wormhole closing, or Dumbass getting promoted) could have serious plot consequences on another. Having all the ships in STSF adopt a single cannon timeline would only squelch the creative juices of the GM's behind the games, and would bring plot development to a standstill, as anything major that would affect other sims would have to be approved by a majority, if not all sims.

 

Another hiccup is location. Some sims are based in a specific area of space, such as Aegis or the Excalibur. Or in different time periods, such as the Hood and Agincourt. It's hardly fair for the rest of the fleet to adopt what Excalibur has developed for canon in the Gamma quadrant, or the Agincourt to have something forced into their timeline by another sim based in the past.

 

All in all, I like the sims here to be as close in continuity to the others as they can, but I'm not going to complain if two sims timelines don't mesh up because things that have happened on the individual ships over the years.

[CaptainSDavies 0]

Wow, what an interesting topic. This what something I thought a lot about when Agincourt was in its infant planning stages. From my perspective, I thought it was both unfair and unreleastic for Agincourt to (essentially) be the future for every STSF sim. A future sim could determine the past just as easy as a present or past sim could determine the future.

 

I think every sim is an interpretation of what GMs and players see in Gene Roddenberry's universe. For Agincourt, I essentially took everything that we had been given by official Trek canon and speculated what 1) the future might be like and 2) adding my own elements to the future where I felt Trek was lacking. Therefore, since every sim is an interpretation, I do not think it is really possible for two sims (unless they have similar leadership and are time-concurrent) to really share a consistent and defined timeline. That being said, sharing a timeline with another sim, or coorindating efforts is very cool as long as all sides are flexible (as Travis said) or are willing to be a little fuzzy on the time and dates (as Joy said in the Aegis string).

[Kansas_Jones 0]

Canon is unique to each sim, and while all these sims here on STSF are within the same universe, and at times plots can interact or overlap, there will also be things that won't mesh. Each sim is unique.

 

But, since I did just rehash the topic posts here in a nutshell, let me throw out a personal note. ;-)

 

I do play two characters within the Excal and 'Court tri-timeline, and while Kansas is a semi-permanent 31 years of age in 2397, Left Ear's age has actually fluctuated during the 2380's. On Aegis, Lefty was 28. When I first popped over to Excal, she became 31. Not a huge difference, but it worked out character wise. There are a few things that have been adjusted over the "years" with regard to the two sims, and I might re-adjust her age one more time, but each game really doesn't interfere with the other.

 

It's important for players to focus on the sim(s) they are on. I mean, you'd drive yourself nuts trying to mesh character history and such with all the other sims. Micro managing can be problem as well - brain drain! I think we all pretty much go with the flow here though.

[Cptn Corizon 0]

I think its an interesting question, and obviously up to the individual gm -teams.

 

On Excalibur, I've worked fairly closely with the GM-team of Agincourt in creating some continuity between the games, but that's got something to do with my "all-canon's should mesh" idea, and really like crossing over with other games as much as possible. Though as we discussed in the thread for Aegis, you have to be careful not to suppress future development.. The solution there is just to be flexible.

 

Personally, I just tell myself we're in slightly different timelines. ;)

[Sorehl 0]

I just want to make sure no one thinks I'm advocating the introduction of some STSF-wide canon rule or forced continuity. I'm just interested in whether players and hosts try to keep track or prefer not to.

 

Since I occasionally move Sorehl between sims and drop in as other screen names for guest stints, I tend to keep a fairly rigid personal continuity between the characters I play. As Joy mentioned, Sorehl will refer to events in his last posting in the Gamma Quadrant and even draw back to old SFOL Aegis storylines (since that sim has opted to include its whole history as canon). I guess I'm wondering if it adds helpful depth for other players or if it's just annoying - like not being part of someone else's inside joke.

 

Personally, I like all the interconnectivity. I enjoy bumping into A9 and noting that they've both served on Excalibur under Captain Vixis. And I must admit, I enjoy dropping in as a recurring guest or villian on multiple sims and having players react - hopefully in an "alright, Ensign Ro's in this one" way instead of a "not another one with Troi's mother" groan. I like dropping an homage to somebody else's plotline. It makes the universe seem complex and real and full of external events.

 

Of course, I've tended toward space station sims so my bias could be towards complexity. On a ship, you could easily choose to be isolated from the rest of the galaxy, never running into a recurring character. I guess I'm curious what the breakdown is.

[Travis Kroells 0]

I just want to make sure no one thinks I'm advocating the introduction of some STSF-wide canon rule or forced continuity. I'm just interested in whether players and hosts try to keep track or prefer not to.

 

Oh, I wasn't refering that you were, but it's the only way I see that would make all the sims on STSF canon with each other. The majority of these sims outdate STSF itself, with a number moving from SFOL, or other places I never visited. Manticore ran it's 500th mission this week, and I know that both the Hood and the Reaent have clicked past a decade on the speedometer.

 

With all the years of existance, I'm curious just how all the different sims individual universes differ from eachother.

[will_marx 0]

Oh, I wasn't refering that you were, but it's the only way I see that would make all the sims on STSF canon with each other. The majority of these sims outdate STSF itself, with a number moving from SFOL, or other places I never visited. Manticore ran it's 500th mission this week, and I know that both the Hood and the Reaent have clicked past a decade on the speedometer.

 

With all the years of existance, I'm curious just how all the different sims individual universes differ from eachother.

 

As has Arcadia (Woo hoo, we're almost old enough to drive in some states). Dac and I had a storyline going as step-siblings in SFOL (Yes, I remember her as an Ensign!), and we just kept it up on STSF, as her younger brother. And Alces reminded me of continuity that I'd forgotten about from SFOL well.

 

And Travis, I think you meant "predate" as opposed to "outdate".

[Kansas_Jones 0]

I just want to make sure no one thinks I'm advocating the introduction of some STSF-wide canon rule or forced continuity. I'm just interested in whether players and hosts try to keep track or prefer not to.

 

Personally, I like all the interconnectivity. I enjoy bumping into A9 and noting that they've both served on Excalibur under Captain Vixis.It makes the universe seem complex and real and full of external events.

 

Oh, I'm pretty sure no one takes it that way. ;-) Off the top of my head, a forum wide continuity/canon would be a major project. If the site was comprised of only two or three sims? Definitely doable. I'm also a fan of external or connected events; I love when other players can "guest star" (see: Corizon under 'Court) as their character if a current sim plot warrants it. And like Capt. Corizon, I tend to go with the "everyone is on a different timeline" way of thinking.

 

And sim breakdown wise on how often you're in your own sim world or in someone elses sim world? I'd think it depends on how a sim is run by the GMs: military, space station based, Boom-age based, exploring based, is the sim all about a doughnut, Na a Spy. Overall, I think its pretty open here for possibilities or guests.

 

And to answer the original topic question - yes, cross sim continuity is fun.

[LoAmi 0]

In my opinion, cross-sim continuity is a great thing when it helps the plot or character development. When it would prevent me from doing something plotwise because it contradicts some other sim's canon, I'll ignore it. I also don't know and don't keep track of Gregorian dates on Arcadia. That leaves a bit of openness for where we are in the Star Trek timeline (somewhere post-Nemesis).

 

It also means we can play with the timeline if we need to in order to make a plot work. Recently, on Arcadia, we had an episode where we found the Romulans claiming territory that contained an inter-universe wormhole and invading an alternate universe. We had no idea why they were doing it. I learned from N'Dak that in the Talon/Excalibur timeline, the Romulans from an alternate universe raided multiple universes for supplies going into the Romulan Civil War (excuse if I got the plot details wrong). So, it's possible that the newly assertive Romulans in Arcadia's universe are the same as the Romulans who go into the RCW in the Talon/Excal universe. On the other hand, I have no intention of bringing the RCW into Arcadia - I'd rather we continue hopping from planet to planet in search of glorious strife. We've also had occasional references to what was happening at about our time in Agincourt history, and we're open to joint sims with other ships if scheduling allows (like we did with Talon a few years ago), which necessarily means that we can temporarily join our canons for the sake of a storyline.

[Kallah Ramson 0]

I think it's good for depth of detail in a sim but bad for people who are unaware of those details.

 

Random example say you came and joined Excal and decided your character came from T-Rogoran in the Gamma quad. Oops, sorry...we blew that planet up (or something to that effect). What do you do then? Another example say you like the Romulans but know nothing about the Rihannsu books. While the depth of detail given in the books is a great source to draw from how equally insane can it make you at first trying to figure what people are talking about. (I've simmed Rihannsu for nearly 13 years and I still HATE the language and have NO idea what the name for most of the ranks are, and want to flat out SHOOT some people who over use it, and...I digress.)

 

So, there's no real answer to this except what's best for the involved players. If you're in multiple sims and want to tie them together then okay. If you're not on the active roster of a sim then it's best to keep what's going on in your other sims IN those sims.

[Dumbass 0]

My personal belief is that while cross-sim continuity is a good thing, it should also be left flexible. Major plot events on one sim (such as Earth being blown up, the wormhole closing, or Dumbass getting promoted) could have serious plot consequences on another.

Especially since the only way I could be promoted any higher is to become a GM.

[Travis Kroells 0]

And Travis, I think you meant "predate" as opposed to "outdate".

 

Yes, I did. That's what I get for...uhh...well you know.

 

Especially since the only way I could be promoted any higher is to become a GM.

 

::shudders::

 

Anyways, onto my real post. Which is mostly in response to Kansas. Flexing different sim canon and timeline can be a bit tricky, considering that my main character has been represented on 6 different sims, ranging from an actual player character, an NPC, or just some relation through logs or such. To be honest, I dont even know his true age anymore, considering I never knew what the date was on Reaent when I joined the sim, and I've had to alter it for both Excalibur and Agincourt.

[Semil 0]

Flexing different sim canon and timeline can be a bit tricky, considering that my main character has been represented on 6 different sims, ranging from an actual player character, an NPC, or just some relation through logs or such.

Well, I know I'd love to bring this character to other sims, but I can't figure out a plausible reason why anyone would let a Vorta run amuck in the Alpha Quadrant. So far, I've limited my contact to a cross-over log and some subspace communication. Still, it was fun.

[STSF NDak 0]

I think it's good for depth of detail in a sim but bad for people who are unaware of those details.

 

Random example say you came and joined Excal and decided your character came from T-Rogoran in the Gamma quad. Oops, sorry...we blew that planet up (or something to that effect). What do you do then? Another example say you like the Romulans but know nothing about the Rihannsu books. While the depth of detail given in the books is a great source to draw from how equally insane can it make you at first trying to figure what people are talking about. (I've simmed Rihannsu for nearly 13 years and I still HATE the language and have NO idea what the name for most of the ranks are, and want to flat out SHOOT some people who over use it, and...I digress.)

 

So, there's no real answer to this except what's best for the involved players. If you're in multiple sims and want to tie them together then okay. If you're not on the active roster of a sim then it's best to keep what's going on in your other sims IN those sims.

 

I don't think I agree with the last statement. I've known several people who don't stay on the rosters of games but still keep up with the activities of that game, simply because they can no longer make the time commitment to that slot, yet are still up on the plot and also enjoy contributing in a meaningful way. Personally, I appreciate the input players like that can provide.

[Joy 0]

Flexing different sim canon and timeline can be a bit tricky, considering that my main character has been represented on 6 different sims, ranging from an actual player character, an NPC, or just some relation through logs or such

 

Or classes of androids? If one considers the hive mind sharing of memories among the Joys as making them effectively all one character, six isn't even close... I've had 9 Joys appear in various sims (not counting the academy androids 13 through 46), and eight of them have been full time player characters on one ship or another. Joy Five has been on four different ships, with Excalibur being the latest.

 

In my private Joy canon which I don't push too hard on the sims the Joys play in, there are three Joys out of twelve who have never served on a ship full time, or even appeared as a guest. Joy Six teaches law and artificial intelligence at Starfleet Academy. Joy Four is the evil twin, still programmed under the Ferengi Laws of Robotics, wandering around perhaps still causing havoc. Joy Three is a tour guide at Tiffany's in New York City, the most wondrous place in the known galaxy.

 

On Aegis, while for the sake of sanity I wasn't playing them all actively, for a few weeks not so long ago, Commander One former XO of CPA's USS Einstein, LtJg Nine, recently councilor of CPA's USS Lovisa, ambassador at large Eight of the MMS Harcourt Fenton Mudd and Ambassador Two of Aegis were all wandering around trying not to bump into one another. Poor Hawke left Nine sitting at Ops in Aegis the control tower, wandered down to Drankum's to talk to Commissioner Sorehl, and found One sitting there...

[Kallah Ramson 0]

I don't think I agree with the last statement. I've known several people who don't stay on the rosters of games but still keep up with the activities of that game, simply because they can no longer make the time commitment to that slot, yet are still up on the plot and also enjoy contributing in a meaningful way. Personally, I appreciate the input players like that can provide.

 

 

This comes back to what started this post, a Romulan Ambassador who's not on the current Aegis roster and who I've only seen there maybe once when I was playing the Gorn Ambassador (though I guess showed up more after I left) wrote a log explaining the absence of Romulans on the station. Thusly, it seemed that events from another sim were being introduced as canon for Aegis even though the player of the Romulan did not have to live with the consequences of these new "facts". So, if someone wants to take a Romulan role they either have to explain away this other log or totally ignore it. Either way, it's then hard to keep everyone on the same page about the facts and that's what canon is all about.

 

And yes, there was nothing so life changing in the Ambassador's log that can't be easily dealt with. But, it is better to leave the matter blank and let it be decided by the GMs and those active in the sim. And personally, since I've hinted to the GMs that I'd be willing to take a Romulan role in addition to playing Kith this seemed a jab in my side about plans I was considering, or perhaps plans others were making. I can only speak about myself on that... I only play a telepath, haven't quite worked all the bugs out of it in RL.

[Kansas_Jones 0]

Thusly, it seemed that events from another sim were being introduced as canon for Aegis even though the player of the Romulan did not have to live with the consequences of these new "facts". So, if someone wants to take a Romulan role they either have to explain away this other log or totally ignore it. Either way, it's then hard to keep everyone on the same page about the facts and that's what canon is all about.

 

And personally, since I've hinted to the GMs that I'd be willing to take a Romulan role in addition to playing Kith this seemed a jab in my side about plans I was considering, or perhaps plans others were making. I can only speak about myself on that... I only play a telepath, haven't quite worked all the bugs out of it in RL.

 

Plan B, C, or D?

 

If a new Rihan ambassador hops onboard Aegis, perhaps they are on a special detached assignment from the government, or an ambassador who despite the withdraw from the station, is sent as a "feeler" to maintain some sort of Federation contact, or an ambassador who does not represent the reigning Rihan government at all - now there's a party.

 

This would probably fall into the "be flexible" section of the posts here (thnk you Ms. Kitty Obvious).

 

And, like all dips from all the powers, this ambassador is Na a Spy. ;-)

[DrDMatthews 0]

This comes back to what started this post, a Romulan Ambassador who's not on the current Aegis roster and who I've only seen there maybe once when I was playing the Gorn Ambassador (though I guess showed up more after I left) wrote a log explaining the absence of Romulans on the station. Thusly, it seemed that events from another sim were being introduced as canon for Aegis even though the player of the Romulan did not have to live with the consequences of these new "facts". So, if someone wants to take a Romulan role they either have to explain away this other log or totally ignore it. Either way, it's then hard to keep everyone on the same page about the facts and that's what canon is all about.

 

I tend to agree with Kallah on this one. Of course, it's up to the GMs running the sim, but I think it would be wiser for "cannon" to remain specific to each sim.

 

If a couple of games want to use cross-sim continuity, fine. But for the most part, players on the current rosters should have the latitude to determine the circumstances behind their character's posting to the ship/station as long as the character's ethnicity, background, etc are approved by the GM. It strikes me as a little unfair to insist a player assume a role that has predetermined parameters courtesy of someone who isn't even playing on that particular game.

 

::looks around for the penny jar and tosses in her 2 cents::

[Grom 0]

I'm not sure if talking about a specific unresolved Aegis-related character situation on the public forums is entirely appropriate. This is something that should be talked through between the players involved and the GMs so misunderstandings and hurt feelings don't develop and so us busy bodies don't get in the way and make things worse. ;)

[STSF NDak 0]

This comes back to what started this post, a Romulan Ambassador who's not on the current Aegis roster and who I've only seen there maybe once when I was playing the Gorn Ambassador (though I guess showed up more after I left) wrote a log explaining the absence of Romulans on the station. Thusly, it seemed that events from another sim were being introduced as canon for Aegis even though the player of the Romulan did not have to live with the consequences of these new "facts". So, if someone wants to take a Romulan role they either have to explain away this other log or totally ignore it. Either way, it's then hard to keep everyone on the same page about the facts and that's what canon is all about.

 

And yes, there was nothing so life changing in the Ambassador's log that can't be easily dealt with. But, it is better to leave the matter blank and let it be decided by the GMs and those active in the sim. And personally, since I've hinted to the GMs that I'd be willing to take a Romulan role in addition to playing Kith this seemed a jab in my side about plans I was considering, or perhaps plans others were making. I can only speak about myself on that... I only play a telepath, haven't quite worked all the bugs out of it in RL.

 

 

Which was done with the permission of the the GM's, something that is always a good idea to have. I think the reaction is a little narrow, as Kansas noted there's all kinds of pways to play with what's already introduced. I find it rather, ironic, that your saying we should close doors for participation, just to open doors... kind of counter-productive if you ask me.

 

It's like saying we should never introduce new plot points or mess with a race, least someone want to do something with that later.

 

As I said, one of the things that has be in play, IMO, is flexability. It's one thing to have some cross-continuity, which I really like, but I would never say that should prolcude further development of a game. If there's a situation where it gets to be hard-to-go-further or have new plot developments, retcon is always an option, it's one of the biggest advantages of having he edit pen.

[Kallah Ramson 0]

I think the reaction is a little narrow, as Kansas noted there's all kinds of pways to play with what's already introduced. I find it rather, ironic, that your saying we should close doors for participation, just to open doors... kind of counter-productive if you ask me.

 

 

That's not what I said, at all. I in fact felt the log in question was what was closing participation. But if the GM approved it then it's a mute point.

 

On the broader and main subject of this thread, I think cross sim interaction is good as long as the simmers are active in both sims. My opinion.

[STSF NDak 0]

That's not what I said, at all. I in fact felt the log in question was what was closing participation. But if the GM approved it then it's a mute point.

 

On the broader and main subject of this thread, I think cross sim interaction is good as long as the simmers are active in both sims. My opinion.

 

 

Clealry, we have different interpretations of what you meant, it seems to me that closing participation to people who otherwise keep up with the game and are intersted, even if they can't be at the game all the time or during the time slot is kind of counter-productive. Guest roles can be extrodinarily helpful in providing more dimension to a game.

[Cmdr JFarrington 0]

Poor Hawke left Nine sitting at Ops in Aegis the control tower, wandered down to Drankum's to talk to Commissioner Sorehl, and found One sitting there...

 

ROFL....that I could have been there for that one!

 

Ah, the joys of Joys.