In a Mirror,_____ly

[Greg Nirvana 0]

I just thought about it, and there's a lot of stuff that can be discussed about different mirrors. They call the Terran Empire a "dark" mirror, so it is logical to assume that there can be other mirrors.

 

Anybody want to comment on this?

[Cptn Corizon 0]

Well Agincourt has its own mirror that's separate from the mirror developed in DS9. And If I were to ever do a Mirror-plot on my games, we'd likely use that Mirror. :)

[Col. C.E. Harper 0]

In a Mirror, Pink-ly?

[Greg Nirvana 0]

Well Agincourt has its own mirror that's separate from the mirror developed in DS9. And If I were to ever do a Mirror-plot on my games, we'd likely use that Mirror. :)

 

Well yes, but its still generally the same as Enterprise and TOS. I was thinking more along the lines of a "groovy" mirror where its a hippie-ish type of style of life. Or you could say another mirror where Vulcan and Earth crash together because of a sort of anomaly, and the planet is shaped like C) (made like that, considering that one planet could be larger than the other) and Humans and Vulcans form one culture, or they could fight it out on the mis-shaped terrain. You know, different stuff.

 

::The thought of a hippy spock comes to mind:: Heh heh heh!

[Greg Nirvana 0]

In a Mirror, Pink-ly?

Indeed, a world where something went wrong along in the timeline, and now the world is conquered by an empress who demands pink.

 

In a Mirror, Dance-ly?

In a Mirror, Pointy?

Ah, I have it,

 

In a mirror, BULGE-ly!

[Col. C.E. Harper 0]

"The product of a diseased mind."

 

As a proud fan of TNG, I am glad they never descended into the "mirror" concept. The mirror episodes on DS9 were creepy and just didn't work. I'm trying not to think of the Intendant for instance, or Garak on Worf's leash. :) Odo's mirror character was most disturbing.

 

The DS9 mirror didn't hold true to the original concept of the mirror, which involved changing the nature of the characters so that their baser qualities came to the surface, their flaws were made into virtues, and vice-versa. Only Kira's character was properly "mirrored" that way; small wonder the Intendant is the most popular character from the DS9 mirror episodes. Otherwise, we saw mainly the characters we knew in a different setting. They were a little rougher, because the setting required it of them, but they remained the essential 'good guys,' just opressed, and the bad guys remained the villains. (This is, incidentally, one of the reasons Agincourt threw out the DS9 mirror canon - aside from the difficulties of operating in a universe where Starfleet doesn't exist.)

 

As for TNG and the mirror - the book "Dark Mirror" by Diane Duane is a terrific look at a TNG mirror universe. The recent mirror universe books "Glass Empires" and "Obsidian Alliance" were also good reading, but they follow the DS9 canon and once again the good guys remain truly good.

[Kansas_Jones 0]

"The product of a diseased mind."

 

As a proud fan of TNG, I am glad they never descended into the "mirror" concept.

 

"Yesterday's Enterprise" came pretty dang close Vatel. The crew and senior officers went armed, with those silver/metal phaser holsters, the uniform cut was more military (high collars), and I believe Picard recorded a "battle log" rather then the normal Captains log. The characters themselves did not change overly much, but I honestly get a sense of rough and tumble desperation every time I have viewed this episode. Add a beleagured Starfleet, a constant state of war with the Klingons, and to me "Yesterday's" can be considered a Mirror version.

 

Having the opportunity to watch (the shows) and even play (STSF) my own characters that are alternate Mirror versions of established ones and totally a gray area of exploration...woo! To just call the Mirror 'verse and the Mirror characters "Evil" is appropriate, but doesn't really convey all of the nuances that are present and established in the episodes. As as the Colonel mentioned - baser qualities came to the surface, and flaws were made into virtues as appropriate to the "evil" universe.

 

Is it safe to say that the Mirror characters are only as evil as their good counterparts allow them to be? I believe this to be true.

 

Shamless plug: The Agincourt had/does have a wicked cool version of the Mirror verse to play in, yes it does. Colonel Harper definitely, and a few others on the 'Court, pretty much know my feelings on the Mirror Mirror universe - I think it is totally FUN, and have a tendency to get really excited :) with regard to it.

 

I recommend both the newest Mirror novels as well - "Glass" and "Obsidian" (even though the later stories (TNG and on) they follow the DS9 version -I have no problem with the DS9 Mirror, I just happen to prefer the TOS and ENT versions and feel they are more "appropriate" to the theme) as mentioned. Oddly enough, I have never checked out TNG's "Dark Mirror", and plan on purchasing a copy after Shore Leave (who knows - maybe I'll spot a copy there) - plus the fact, Diane Duane is just one of the best Trek authors ever. Another interesting Mirror version is a TOS novel by the name of "Killing Time" by Della Van Hise - not strictly Mirror, say more along the lines of the alternate TNG "Yesterdays" episode - good read.

 

....well, all that just triggered the Alternate Evil Kitty muse. Down girl...down! >^..^<

[Greg Nirvana 0]

"Yesterday's Enterprise" came pretty dang close Vatel. The crew and senior officers went armed, with those silver/metal phaser holsters, the uniform cut was more military (high collars), and I believe Picard recorded a "battle log" rather then the normal Captains log. The characters themselves did not change overly much, but I honestly get a sense of rough and tumble desperation every time I have viewed this episode. Add a beleagured Starfleet, a constant state of war with the Klingons, and to me "Yesterday's" can be considered a Mirror version.

 

Having the opportunity to watch (the shows) and even play (STSF) my own characters that are alternate Mirror versions of established ones and totally a gray area of exploration...woo! To just call the Mirror 'verse and the Mirror characters "Evil" is appropriate, but doesn't really convey all of the nuances that are present and established in the episodes. As as the Colonel mentioned - baser qualities came to the surface, and flaws were made into virtues as appropriate to the "evil" universe.

 

Is it safe to say that the Mirror characters are only as evil as their good counterparts allow them to be? I believe this to be true.

 

Shamless plug: The Agincourt had/does have a wicked cool version of the Mirror verse to play in, yes it does. Colonel Harper definitely, and a few others on the 'Court, pretty much know my feelings on the Mirror Mirror universe - I think it is totally FUN, and have a tendency to get really excited :) with regard to it.

 

I recommend both the newest Mirror novels as well - "Glass" and "Obsidian" (even though the later stories (TNG and on) they follow the DS9 version -I have no problem with the DS9 Mirror, I just happen to prefer the TOS and ENT versions and feel they are more "appropriate" to the theme) as mentioned. Oddly enough, I have never checked out TNG's "Dark Mirror", and plan on purchasing a copy after Shore Leave (who knows - maybe I'll spot a copy there) - plus the fact, Diane Duane is just one of the best Trek authors ever. Another interesting Mirror version is a TOS novel by the name of "Killing Time" by Della Van Hise - not strictly Mirror, say more along the lines of the alternate TNG "Yesterdays" episode - good read.

 

....well, all that just triggered the Alternate Evil Kitty muse. Down girl...down! >^..^<

 

Well.....

In the Enterprise mirror, (In a mirror, Darkly pts 1 and 2) They all really are evil, rather than exposing their flaws. For example, Hoshi is a Grade-A "slut", who sleeps with the CO's to get what she wants, which is at the end, The Emperor's position. Phlox is(and this terrified me, he was my favorite character) a mad scientist. He still has his manners though, as he says to the creature in the detox room," Will you please die???". Those aren't really flaws of his, and Denobulans are not cruel as far as i understand, except for the war against the Antarans.

 

I was mainly surprised with what they did to T'Pol. She didn't change at all whatsoever. She was loyal to her captain, and did whatever she could to rescue him. I was mainly surprised that Travis was a MACO.

[Kansas_Jones 0]

Well.....

In the Enterprise mirror, (In a mirror, Darkly pts 1 and 2) They all really are evil, rather than exposing their flaws. For example, Hoshi is a Grade-A "slut", who sleeps with the CO's to get what she wants, which is at the end, The Emperor's position. Phlox is(and this terrified me, he was my favorite character) a mad scientist. He still has his manners though, as he says to the creature in the detox room," Will you please die???". Those aren't really flaws of his, and Denobulans are not cruel as far as i understand, except for the war against the Antarans.

 

I was mainly surprised with what they did to T'Pol. She didn't change at all whatsoever. She was loyal to her captain, and did whatever she could to rescue him. I was mainly surprised that Travis was a MACO.

 

I found them way more Pirate like, rather then evil - the same character traits that come out depending on the situation, but in a different universe with more aggression. Same premise as the TOS Mirror characters. But, that's just one opinion.

 

T'Pol - the logical Vulcan, and no, she did not change, compared to the rest of the cast. Cool, calculating, observes all around her, and offers advice (even when you don't want it). Reverse and channel that into the Mirror 'verse. She watches from the distance, makes note of alliances and conflict (remember her watching that exchange btw Reed and Trip in the engine room?) and when the moment is right, acts. She is also not above using others (the mind meld with Tucker to have him sabotage some relays) to suit whatever plans she has.

 

Hoshi is the Captain's Woman embodied - not as cool as Marlena, Kirk's woman in TOS, but pretty good. She was aggressive; she knew what, and who, she wanted, and went for it. The regular Hoshi could be agressive as well. In "Broken Bow", when she first hears the "new" language of the Klingons? She wants the language, and signs on for the mission. Knows what she wants, goes for it. The Mirror version had herself some pretty good tactical results too as a result of her maneuvering - it got her all the way to Emperor. Go for it sweetie...literally.

 

Phlox - he had all kinds of animal and plant specimens and pets in the regular universe, and he was interested in them. His Mirror counterpart had a whole lot of pets as well...it just so happened his interest was in dissection rather then keeping them around the medical bay. Ick.

 

Travis - this dude is hard to Mirror-ize, being the most underdeveloped character out of the whole ENT cast. I think it is safe to say he was the "go to guy" if you wanted good, solid backup or to get the ship through that nebula. And he did this with enthusiam. In Mirror, that translated over to him being the MACO backup in personal guard form, and a true mercenary - he went from Archer's guard (remember the brown noser compliments he winged at Archer? Mirror version of enthusiastic ), to Hoshi's guard (and convenient lover).

Edited July 6, 2007 by Kansas_Jones

[Kansas_Jones 0]

I just thought about it, and there's a lot of stuff that can be discussed about different mirrors. They call the Terran Empire a "dark" mirror, so it is logical to assume that there can be other mirrors.

 

Anybody want to comment on this?

 

The Mirror 'verse is only one version of the "mirror" - as with TNG's "Yesterdays Enterprise", many universes can be different.

 

Check out the cool alternate time line plot that the Reaent did - just another version. :-)

[Greg Nirvana 0]

T'Pol - the logical Vulcan, and no, she did not change, compared to the rest of the cast. Cool, calculating, observes all around her, and offers advice (even when you don't want it). Reverse and channel that into the Mirror 'verse. She watches from the distance, makes note of alliances and conflict (remember her watching that exchange btw Reed and Trip in the engine room?) and when the moment is right, acts. She is also not above using others (the mind meld with Tucker to have him sabotage some relays) to suit whatever plans she has.

 

Phlox - he had all kinds of animal and plant specimens and pets in the regular universe, and he was interested in them. His Mirror counterpart had a whole lot of pets as well...it just so happened his interest was in dissection rather then keeping them around the medical bay. Ick.

 

T'Pol- True, she did stand far away, but I'm suprised that Tucker took advantage of her in the Mirror 'verse.

 

Phlox- He wasn't really into dissection as much as torture. As you know, he co-invented "the Booth" with Reed. He also killed off the alien thing by cooling down the systems. COnsidering he was doctor and took a Hippocratic oath of sorts(since he was Denobulan, not human, but joined the medical exchange), Is it possible that the great scientists of the world became (as you said) pirates? They could have just never had an oath.

[Kansas_Jones 0]

Is it possible that the great scientists of the world became (as you said) pirates? They could have just never had an oath.

 

I'm guessing the Oath doesn't even exist in the Mirror 'verse Gregory - doubly so from Phlox's actions (Booth and the lab animals).

 

There is a great line in TOS "Mirror, Mirror" where the regular McCoy comments on his sickbay (the one in Mirror) being a "chamber of horrors" and "two of his assistants were betting on the tolerance level of an injured man" - how long before he passed out from the pain. Yep, definitely no Oath.

[Greg Nirvana 0]

I'm guessing the Oath doesn't even exist in the Mirror 'verse Gregory - doubly so from Phlox's actions (Booth and the lab animals).

 

There is a great line in TOS "Mirror, Mirror" where the regular McCoy comments on his sickbay (the one in Mirror) being a "chamber of horrors" and "two of his assistants were betting on the tolerance level of an injured man" - how long before he passed out from the pain. Yep, definitely no Oath.

Judging from the sentence, the oath probably went like this," I swear to make my patient experience as much pain as possible before he is either cured or expires."

 

EDIT: What I don't understand is why they had to change some people's appearences(the ladies uniform for ENT, Spock's goatee(gives me nightmares) from TOS, etc.)

Edited July 6, 2007 by Gregory Micenberg

[Col. C.E. Harper 0]

T'Pol- True, she did stand far away, but I'm suprised that Tucker took advantage of her in the Mirror 'verse.

 

Phlox- He wasn't really into dissection as much as torture. As you know, he co-invented "the Booth" with Reed. He also killed off the alien thing by cooling down the systems. COnsidering he was doctor and took a Hippocratic oath of sorts(since he was Denobulan, not human, but joined the medical exchange), Is it possible that the great scientists of the world became (as you said) pirates? They could have just never had an oath.

 

The line between torture and science is thinner than we'd like to pretend it is. If you don't care about the fate of your research subjects, but only about the medical data you collect, then what you call an experiment, they would call torture. Phlox seemed to me to be far more interested in the physiological response of the subject than in causing pain for pain's sake. Regarding the Booth, it seemed to me he approached it as an exercise in stimulation -- how much can the nervous system be stimulated without long-term damage? How can techniques be adapted across species?-- And as for the Tholian, that was clearly a desire to learn its limits; he was much more interested in discovering the precise effects of extreme cold and the point of death than he was in causing the Tholian pain.

 

It isn't surprising to find the scientific interest carried to extremes in the mirror. In the real world, we've really only started codifying the ethics of human experimentation in the last 60 years -- largely as a result of atrocities committed in the name of medical knowledge. The Nuremberg Code was adopted after the trials of Nazi scientists, and reaffirmed in '64 with the Declaration of Helsinki. But the Nuremberg Code didn't stop experiments with malaria, mustard gas, and syphillis from being carried out on uniformed and unconsenting people right here in the US.

[Greg Nirvana 0]

The line between torture and science is thinner than we'd like to pretend it is. If you don't care about the fate of your research subjects, but only about the medical data you collect, then what you call an experiment, they would call torture. Phlox seemed to me to be far more interested in the physiological response of the subject than in causing pain for pain's sake. Regarding the Booth, it seemed to me he approached it as an exercise in stimulation -- how much can the nervous system be stimulated without long-term damage? How can techniques be adapted across species?-- And as for the Tholian, that was clearly a desire to learn its limits; he was much more interested in discovering the precise effects of extreme cold and the point of death than he was in causing the Tholian pain.

 

It is true that extremes have been taken to develop cures, even after the Nuremburg code thingy, but If you examine the evidence, it seems Phlox doesnt really care about the scientific results. For example, he was screaming at the Tholian," Would you please die??". Afterwards, he didnt even care to check the results. As well, he didn't really talk about finding a way to stimulate nerves without long-term damage. He did mention constantly switching areas of stimulation to cause maximum pain without gaining an immunity from gwetting used to the injury.

[Col. C.E. Harper 0]

It is true that extremes have been taken to develop cures, even after the Nuremburg code thingy, but If you examine the evidence, it seems Phlox doesnt really care about the scientific results. For example, he was screaming at the Tholian," Would you please die??". Afterwards, he didnt even care to check the results. As well, he didn't really talk about finding a way to stimulate nerves without long-term damage. He did mention constantly switching areas of stimulation to cause maximum pain without gaining an immunity from gwetting used to the injury.

 

But that's precisely the kind of medical puzzle a scientist operating without the medical ethics we use would be interested in -- maximum stimulation with minimum damage. And, personally, I read his impatience with the Tholian as frustration that his predictions had been proved false.

[Greg Nirvana 0]

But that's precisely the kind of medical puzzle a scientist operating without the medical ethics we use would be interested in -- maximum stimulation with minimum damage. And, personally, I read his impatience with the Tholian as frustration that his predictions had been proved false.

 

I guess it could be put that way. Throughout the episode(both parts) though, he doesn't seem to be a medicinal doctor. Could it be that they just learned basic first aid so the doctor(or lets go further and say "medicinal war practionist") could focus on ways to discipline the crew? The way i see it, he should be focusing on making advances in biological warfare(against the Geneva treaty thing we have, although they most likely don't have it).

[Dave Doss 0]

As I see the "mirror" universe, it's all about choice. When it was first put into existance in TOS they made their characters just plain evil. So this was an actual "mirror" universe at that point. However we know that spock tried to change that. As a result the empire fell and the aliens did a "let's opress them now" thing. It ceased to become a direct "mirror" and became simply another alternate universe. But for some reason it's still the one they travel too with transporter accidents. Probably something weird like the phase shift of the matter stream is in tune with it or something. Needless to say anything in the DS9 "mirror universe" episodes is accurate. It simply isn't based on the choices the normal universe cast made but rather how their lives would have turned out given the history. Although this causes issues since it's likely most people wouldn't even exist(I'm pretty sure ben sisco's mother was a under the control of a prophet alien), but we can ignore that.

 

My RP is actually devoting a season to alternate universes. We're keeping away from strictly "mirror" and simply using alternate universes as just that, alternate. They developed differently based on choices. For example: Our Chief Medical Officer is a ruthless agent of an interdimensional organization that wants to conquer the galaxy in all universes. We introduced it by having the daughter I never had from the girl I never married come from one universe, followed shortly by the evil CMO from another. We also lost our Captain and gained his ensign counterpart. Again, not strictly evil or exactly opposite (the evil CMO doesn't know medicine) but they are genetically the same. And since the infinite possibilities theory thingy allows us to bring in anyone we want, it opens up a nice set of possibilities.

[Kansas_Jones 0]

As I see the "mirror" universe, it's all about choice. When it was first put into existance in TOS they made their characters just plain evil. So this was an actual "mirror" universe at that point. However we know that spock tried to change that. As a result the empire fell and the aliens did a "let's opress them now" thing. It ceased to become a direct "mirror" and became simply another alternate universe.

Well, at it's heart the Mirror verse is an alternate universe. As I said before - Is it safe to say that the Mirror characters are only as evil as their good counterparts "allow" them to be? I believe this to be true. I agree that it is a choice.

 

As Colonel Harper pointed out - The DS9 mirror didn't hold true to the original concept of the mirror, which involved changing the nature of the characters so that their baser qualities came to the surface, their flaws were made into virtues, and vice-versa. It was the same DS9 characters in a different setting. So really, DS9 is the show that changed the Mirror universe concept, but I'm not saying that is a bad thing. Just another alternate 'verse to play in.

 

Actually, when I dwell on it, "evil" might be an overused word with regard to the Mirror Universe as well.

 

Case in point - Kansas JoNs from the Agincourt Mirror Verse. Is she evil? Actually, no. Is she a handful? Absolutely. I went with a classic TOS Mirror-ing.

 

I had an Agincourt log where she forged transfer orders using a contact with expertise in this area. A marine was transferred to the security department by a non existant Admiral (thank you, yes, it was brilliant :D ). JoNs completely bypassed both 'Court commanding officers, and Imperial Fleet Personnel. An evil act? No. A baser criminal quality brought to the service as a virtue? Yep.

 

I still view the Mirror Universe as a rough and tumble pirate concept as well.

Edited July 13, 2007 by Kansas_Jones

[Dave Doss 0]

As I said before - Is it safe to say that the Mirror characters are only as evil as their good counterparts "allow" them to be? I believe this to be true.

Then one must ask, which universe has the choice? If you really want to think about it, from the "mirror" universe's perspective, the other universe is the Mirror. Are those people only as good as the non-good ones allow them to be?

[STSF NDak 0]

I think they both have a choice. I don't think either universe is inherently different, it's just in the "Mirror" somewhere along the way, people decide to choose differently :D

[Dave Doss 0]

I think they both have a choice. I don't think either universe is inherently different, it's just in the "Mirror" somewhere along the way, people decide to choose differently :D

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Sam_SemaJ 0]

man, all of the replies in this topic are REALLY long. It seems people have very extensive feelings and opinions on the mirror universe. I for one...have never really comprehended it. Somewhere along the line some stsfer i think decided to go live in her mirror universe and that really confused me. someone should really adequately explain the mirror thing. I feel like I'm missing out on something pretty essential to cannon trek

[Greg Nirvana 0]

man, all of the replies in this topic are REALLY long. It seems people have very extensive feelings and opinions on the mirror universe. I for one...have never really comprehended it. Somewhere along the line some stsfer i think decided to go live in her mirror universe and that really confused me. someone should really adequately explain the mirror thing. I feel like I'm missing out on something pretty essential to cannon trek

It's not that hard to explain. ::scratches head::

 

Um....uh.......er.......uh...... N'Dak, why don't you explain.

 

(i just came back from paris yay)

 

I think that if both of the verses had a choice then neither of them have a choice(if you understand what i mean). They both choose, but are in effect binded to their base characteristics, making their choice limited to none.