Vulcan logic and genetics

[LoAmi 0]

There seems to be this idea among Trek fans that Vulcans are predisposed to being logical, as if it were something genetic.  From my understanding of Trek history, though, it seems that Vulcans, if they are predisposed to any behavior, would be predisposed towards being just as instinctually guided as anyone else - if not more so (Pon Far, for example, the only part of their instinct left that they can't repress).  It is the *learned* Vulcan mental discipline that makes them so logical and suppressive of emotions.  That means that someone who is fully Vulcan or half Vulcan (etc., if those genes are passed on and expressed) and never had any of the Vulcan training should more resemble a primal emotional Vulcan (or a Romulan) than a 23rd or 24th century logical one.

 

Comments?

[Dumbass 0]

I'm not a Vulcan, but I play one in STSF.

 

In TOS we were led to believe that Vulcan logic was a genetic trait, but in later movies and shows this restriction was lightened and we began to see Vulcans having some feelings.  

 

We know that the Vulcans were an emotional race 5000 years ago but over time (a couple centuries probably) they learned to curb these impulses.  My theory is in their natural state they were as emotional as Humans, but they had the CAPACITY for achieving a state of pure logic that Humans did not and do not.  Natural selection has tended to reward those who had a greater capacity for logic than the others and, over time, this trait for logic became genetic.

 

That does not mean there isn't a role for meditation and training, and that there can't be any throwbacks to earlier generations (It happens among Humans as well.), but over time "nature" becomes more important than "nuture".  It's called evolution.

[Cptn Moose 0]

I think you're right on target.

 

According to Trek lore, the ancient Vulcans were "a passionate, violent people whose civilization was torn by terrible wars."  Surak taught his people to reject their emotions and embrase a philosophy of pure logic.

 

I can remember at least two episodes to back you up.

 

The first one was an original series episode where Kirk and Spock go through a time portal and are trapped on an arcitc planet.  Kirk, naturally, finds the only female there to keep him warm.  Spock meanwhile, reverted to an agressive, savage state because they'd travelled back before the time of Surak and that was how his people behaved then (I know, it doesn't make sense to me either in regards to time travel, but it does describe ancient Vulcans).

 

The second episode was a Voyager story, where Tuvok was undercover on some planet and a telepath broke through his mental shields and penetrated his mind.  The telepath went mad because he wasn't trained to handle the intensity of the violent emotions Tuvok had been trained to surpress.  I think Belana was on trial for some reason, but that's about all I can remember about the story.  First season, maybe.

 

I'll award a weekend getaway for two on Galorndon Core to anyone who can come up with the episode titles. : )

 

Moose

[Images 0]

I'm not really a big fan of the original series and i've never seen voyager (i'm a movies, tng and ds9 man) but i found out your episodes

 

Original Series

All Our Yesterdays – season three

 

Voyager

Random Thoughts – season four

 

Now give me the weekend getaway and one of our lady GM's to take with me :(

[Cptn Moose 0]

Impressive job, Mr. Images.

 

I don't have a travellogue to whet your appetite, but Galorndon Core was featured in the 3rd Season TNG Episode "The Enemy"   A Barolian freighter is on it's way to pick you up.

 

I'm afraid you'll have to arrange your own date.  But my two friends F'lora and F'auna are anxious to meet you.  If you've never dated twin Klingon sisters before, you're in for a treat.

 

Enjoy your vacation and congratulations on a research job well done. : )

 

Friendly Travel Agent Moose

[Guest STSF Lightning]

My opinion, Vulcans are like most others. Their emotions are innate. But most Vulcans behavior is dictacted by learned behaviors. As in meditation, and as I put it..., "Stifling self repression". It could probably be better said as; self restraint. Which in my opinion, is based on the race's custom of controlling emotions. That factors into their behavior. Think of the vast differences between Sybok and Spock in ST V, TPol and the Nomad Vulcans in Enterprise. :(   ~ STSF Lightning ~ Star Trek™ Simulation Forum Game Master (GM) Saturday STSF Lounge Bartender In the StarTrek.com Holodeck Chatroom 10:00 PM - 11:00 PM (Eastern) 7:00 PM - 8:00 PM (Pacific)

[MajorZStarDust 0]

Lightning stole my words!

 

It has been interesting with Enterprise to see more emotional Vulcans with the nomads, and there has been a lot more discussion on teachings of Surak and such. The episode where T'Pol meets the Nomads it is revealed that Vulcans do have emotions, but they are repressed by logical teachings and meditation.

I think Dumbass has a pretty good theory going with evolution and the capacity towards logic.

 

I never could play a Vulcan.. I guess I am too in touch with my emotions or something.

 

However, I used to play Deltans. I developed a whole culture for this race, down to government, religon and daily life. There is very little Trek lore written in stone about them, other than they are supposed to also be a logic type race. I never played that part up.

[FredM 0]

However, I used to play Deltans. I developed a whole culture for this race, down to government, religon and daily life. There is very little Trek lore written in stone about them, other than they are supposed to also be a logic type race. I never played that part up.

Hey there,

 

Well, the Deltans are also known to be a very "sexual" people. Sexuality in their society is very up front and center. If you read the novel version of Star Trek: The Motion Picture, it goes into a little more detail. Also explains the remark by Illia "My record of celibacy is on file, Captain."

 

As for the Vulcans, I grow concerned that sometimes Enterprise is "pushing things" a bit. I did like the idea that their ability to mind meld is not widespread or not widely accepted in the 22nd century. However, the few times Spock showed emotion it was stated to be due to his half human origins. Yet the Vulcans we see in Enterprise show it and it just seems to sometimes demean the history that had already been established.

[LoAmi 0]

However, the few times Spock showed emotion it was stated to be due to his half human origins. Yet the Vulcans we see in Enterprise show it and it just seems to sometimes demean the history that had already been established.

I disagree. It adds an extra dimension to Spock's character (and to Vulcans in general).  The idea of Vulcan logic and emotional suppression is so embedded in them by the 22nd and 23rd centuries, that they (1) deny their true natures (2) make any activity that might bring out that they have emotions into a social stigma (close to illegal).  (3) blame it on something else whenever they can (in Spock's halfbreed case -- how convenient that he can invoke that all the emotions are coming from the human side!).

 

As a side note, the Vulcans of the 22d century seem to run something more on the lines of a repressive dictatorship than a society run on the logic of its individuals.  Other than "stigma" -- T'Pol keeps mentioning about the Vulcan science directorate has proven that time travel is impossible as if it's dogma, despite the (empirical/scientific) evidence for time travel in Enterprise.  Is this science or politics?

[LoAmi 0]

We know that the Vulcans were an emotional race 5000 years ago but over time (a couple centuries probably) they learned to curb these impulses.  My theory is in their natural state they were as emotional as Humans, but they had the CAPACITY for achieving a state of pure logic that Humans did not and do not.  Natural selection has tended to reward those who had a greater capacity for logic than the others and, over time, this trait for logic became genetic.

This post presupposes that there are genetic differences between the "logical" Vulcans and the "emotional" Vulcans.  

This would necessarily limit the role of individual decision making in whether they transitioned from emotional expression to repression.  I wouldn't think that a few centuries is enough time for mass-scale naturally selected evolution in a people that lives for a few centuries.  Would this imply that the Vulcans had an artificial selection (social? war? genocide???) going on a few centuries ago and that only the ones with some propensity for mental order survived to reproduce?

 

I'm not saying that the Vulcan mind doesn't have a genetically encoded *capacity* for being very ordered.  It also seems to have the capacity to be very disordered.  I'm questioning whether the use of one over the other is genetically encoded as well.

 

Anyway, IMHO, philosophically, it would be more satisfying for Vulcans to be making the choice to embrace logic. (although philosophy does not make something true   :( )

 

PS - about mind melds and why all Vulcans of 23/24 century seem to be able to do them but 22 can't (since 100 yrs - 1 generation - is not enough time for evolution):  (1) once the stigma was removed, Vulcans suddenly "discovered" that they could do it (2) all Vulcans of 23/24 can't, just the ones we've seen can.

[Images 0]

Impressive job, Mr. Images.

 

I don't have a travellogue to whet your appetite, but Galorndon Core was featured in the 3rd Season TNG Episode "The Enemy"   A Barolian freighter is on it's way to pick you up.

 

I'm afraid you'll have to arrange your own date.  But my two friends F'lora and F'auna are anxious to meet you.  If you've never dated twin Klingon sisters before, you're in for a treat.

 

Enjoy your vacation and congratulations on a research job well done. : )

 

Friendly Travel Agent Moose

wait a minute, now i've just realised you plan to send me to a planet where one by one my bodily functions will collapse and i'll die! Well i have just thing to say to YOU mister! Just how hot are the two klingon ladies and can i have a hot tub?

[Cmdr Laura Issia 0]

This would necessarily limit the role of individual decision making in whether they transitioned from emotional expression to repression.  I wouldn't think that a few centuries is enough time for mass-scale naturally selected evolution in a people that lives for a few centuries.  Would this imply that the Vulcans had an artificial selection (social? war? genocide???) going on a few centuries ago and that only the ones with some propensity for mental order survived to reproduce?

 

::dragging TNG lore out of the dark recesses of her memory:: Wasn't there an episode where there was this device that amplified the telepathic powers of Vulcanoids (meaning Romulans, too, because it was made before the split) and could only be stopped if you didn't have any hostile feelings/hatred within you?  That's a pretty good reason to artificially select for logic...

[Images 0]

::dragging TNG lore out of the dark recesses of her memory:: Wasn't there an episode where there was this device that amplified the telepathic powers of Vulcanoids (meaning Romulans, too, because it was made before the split) and could only be stopped if you didn't have any hostile feelings/hatred within you?

do i get to win a weekend with you on a planet if i find THAT one cos this weekend is totally booked solid, lemme see. hmmmmm uh-huh, yeah there it is,

 

saturday: die a horrible death on core.

 

maybe we can work something out for next week, i'll have my people call your people

[Dumbass 0]

::dragging TNG lore out of the dark recesses of her memory:: Wasn't there an episode where there was this device that amplified the telepathic powers of Vulcanoids (meaning Romulans, too, because it was made before the split) and could only be stopped if you didn't have any hostile feelings/hatred within you?

do i get to win a weekend with you on a planet if i find THAT one

Gambit, part II.

 

Don't wear anything too involved.

[Kate Iasone 0]

This post presupposes that there are genetic differences between the "logical" Vulcans and the "emotional" Vulcans.  

This would necessarily limit the role of individual decision making in whether they transitioned from emotional expression to repression.  I wouldn't think that a few centuries is enough time for mass-scale naturally selected evolution in a people that lives for a few centuries.  Would this imply that the Vulcans had an artificial selection (social? war? genocide???) going on a few centuries ago and that only the ones with some propensity for mental order survived to reproduce?

 

I'm not saying that the Vulcan mind doesn't have a genetically encoded *capacity* for being very ordered.  It also seems to have the capacity to be very disordered.  I'm questioning whether the use of one over the other is genetically encoded as well.

 

Anyway, IMHO, philosophically, it would be more satisfying for Vulcans to be making the choice to embrace logic. (although philosophy does not make something true    )

 

Yep.... I'm gonna ramble.

 

There was a mention of a war. I forget where exactly I thought it was TNG, but might have been one of the movies. But it was the reason they started teaching emotional repression. That is, if I'm remembering correctly.  

 

Which works more toward a sociological aspect. And with all cultures, not everyone follows customs. But most cases the majority does. Though that isn't to say it started as a majority decision. The psychological aspect is with the individual which their surroundings to tend to help mold people into what and who they are.

 

Which if parents and mentors teach emotional repression, then it is more a learned behavior. It's been proven that it in fact isn't always permanent. Though was designed to be just that. It can be undone. It's possible to break the cycle of behavior. Just as it is to break habits. Not easily done, but possible. Even some cases have shown that.

 

Example would be looking at Tuvok at the end of Voyager, and the neurological disease that caused regression. In general with beings; Disease, training, trauma, stress, and even hypnotism, can be some of the causes of psychological regression. Which with the exception of disease, that works mostly against the evolution theory when talking about regression. And more toward their reactions to emotions being a learned behavior. Where in the case of progression, it's very possible that those, and other unnamed factors, could possibly work toward the next step in Vulcan evolution.

 

But..., playing devils advocate. If it was a change due to a biological aspect, wouldn't there be signs of changes in the brain structure and pattern, to associate the repression, with evolution? Though not overnight, signs of evolutionary progress, coinciding with the beginning and progress, of the customary emotional restraint? That is not to say it wouldn't have happened anyway, but comparing the time in which evolution could occur and the time the teachings of emotional control began. I would wonder mostly about changes to the Vulcan brain since emotions are produced by the brain.

 

Though again, within the theory of Cause and Effect, there is a physical theory that debates the neurologial theory. In which emotions originate from the brain. With the physical theory, the body reacts first, then a being feels emotion as a result of signals sent from the body to the brain. Versus, the neurological theory that emotional responses originate from the brain, then messages are sent to the body, to cause a reaction. Such as: Major movement like backing away or hugging. Or minor, along the lines of a facial expression, waving a hand, tapping a foot.

 

So one could also look into physiological changes in addition to neurological changes. And more so evolution.

 

An interesting question that could, or could not, lead to evidence. As in Enterprise; Vulcans having a more keen sense of smell. Was it always like that? Or was it due to an evolutionary change? Be it that the change was just in the cards regardless, or due to the training they received through out the generations. But taking into account the fact that they even are taught to keep facial and motor reactions to emotions under control. Which leaves me to believe it would probably be more of a neurological change, than a general physiological change. Though they are and/or could be, closely related.

 

Though the biological engineering might not have been intentional bioengineering. Looking at the example of people in the 21st century versus those in the 14th century. People in the 21st century are immune to more diseases than their ancestors. Taller, with a longer life span. Reproduce at a higher success rate. (Without medication.) This can be from anything. Looking at some of the overall factors. Location and environment, progression of modern medicine, even just biological evolution on it's own. Although, when looking at human emotions and biology, it's somewhat the opposite case.

 

Emotions were self controlled by teachings taught to humans based on the belief in a god, or several gods. Which like the Vulcans, was taught by mentors and parents. Another example of learned behavior. Though what supports the logic behind teaching that, is probably more complicated.

 

Not all were taught the same, others differently, some not at all. Most people tried to control their actions by what they thought would please a higher power the most. If a person angered the gods, their life would be one of peril and misery. In return for good behavior they were told the reward was happiness, peace, health, tranquility, and the belief that they would move on to eternal bliss. This was based off of assumptions of who or what created human life. Specifically, based off the belief in a higher power than mankind.

 

Where it was an opposite for the Vulcans. They were an emotional people, but taught to repress their emotions. Taught that they will feel more at peace, more happiness, and tranquility, by controlling and repressing their emotions. Where without that discipline, they would feel chaos, and be a danger to themselves, as well as others around them.

 

They based this off of the facts of their past history as Vulcans. Which is logical. "Those who don't recognise the past, are doomed to repeat it." That one observation which spawned Vulcans to be trained to control their emotions, could have propelled the race to establish higher levels of thinking. Setting higher goals, in order to better not only the individual, but the race in general. In which they reach, in part, due to their repression of emotions and training. Possibly clearing ones mind of emotion, therefore bringing the next important factor forward without distraction. That being logic.

 

There could be many factors into it. Learned behavior is definitely one. Evolution is probably, definitely yet another factor. Could it be that with both factoring in, it works to build the known Vulcan psyche? And all apsects of which, one being Vulcan logic, as it is known?

 

::shrugs:: There's my forty cents into the discussion.

Okay, done. Going away now.

[Dumbass 0]

Yep - you rambled.

[Cmdr Laura Issia 0]

But it was the cool kind of rambling.  ::heads back to reread because she has 'vacation brain' and can't process::